22 ms·

I agree and that's why I think the problem cannot be solved in private hands but with communal ownership.

by awild 5y ago

asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
If you permit enough new housing to satisfy demand, that would also solve the problem. As long as insufficient new housing is being built, prices will go up on market rate housing. The lucky few who manage to get into price controlled housing will have better prices, but everyone else will face higher costs or be unable to live in a region entirely. One thing is for sure: as long as any private housing ownership is allowed, rich people aren't going to be the ones left high and dry.
- awild 5y ago
  The amount of new apts would be dramatically high to curb prices and make them realistic again. And Berlin is probably also not able to magically create as much new living space as is needed in that short of a time frame especially given the developers unwillingness to build affordable housing. I think where we probably fundamentally don't agree is that not all things need to be provided through a market. (or I think my point is more so that we've at least observed it not reall working here, so we could at least try a different strategy or multitudes and see how far those take us)
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    > The amount of new apts would be dramatically high to curb prices and make them realistic again I'm fine with short term patches to help with the acute issues, but fundamentally unless a lot of housing is built, there are going to be some people suffering in the housing market. Either it will be poor people paying a lot for housing, or it will be poor people who are unable to win lotteries to get into public housing who then cannot afford housing at all. Whether the housing is publicly or privately owned is just pushing sand around the sandbox. It just changes exactly who the winners and losers are, but not the number of people losing. > I think where we probably fundamentally don't agree is that not all things need to be provided through a market. I don't hold this belief. There is no fundamental disagreement on this score between us.
notanzaiiswear 5y ago
The problem is: who gets the cheap housing in communal ownership? Supply is limited. So if you don't pick the person who is willing to pay the most, who do you give the apartment to? Who gets to decide? Are you sure you want to live in that kind of world, where some political elite gets to decide your fate?
- awild 5y ago
  There is already communal property in Berlin and all over Europe. Its not some grim socialist dystopia. They serve under the same conditions as private companies just don't have to completely bend over to shareholders wishes. Vienna the city for example is the biggest landlord in Europe. Obviously we need more housing but until then we also need to ensure that people with normal incomes can also afford to live _in_ the City.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- yunohn 5y ago
  > Are you sure you want to live in that kind of world, where some political elite gets to decide your fate? Whenever people say stuff like this, I wonder if they’ve ever taken a moment to look around themselves and see that it is already that way. The current housing problem is also orchestrated by the same political elite…
  - xyzzyz 5y ago
    There is a difference between policies making your desired place more expensive, and being literally dependent on some corrupt government officials, who is handing out apartments as favors for allies, or just for bribes.
- bakuninsbart 5y ago
  A number of public housing here in Berlin is reserved for people making less than a certain amount, having no job at all, or working/living in precarious situations. You can apply for that status at the local gov. It is not flawless, of course, but it at least avoids segregation. I live in a district that was originally working class, and is being very fastly gentrified now (yuppie myself I guess), and it just sucks that people who've lived here all their lives have to move to completely new environments because this is now an area desirable desirable for rich people. Same with small businesses, one of my favorite bars closed down recently due to some English billionaires wanting to turn the house into higher margin living. Vice did a documentary on it called "Punks vs. Billionaires". For the people living here, who live in small flats and still pay half their income to it, these "living room" bars, where you do not have to buy to be welcome were absolutely essential. But they all get destroyed now. Almost all new private housing is for richer people, because they are the most profitable, and lots of them move over at the moment. The state needs to step in to make sure that normal people can still live a decent life around here, too, lest we become a horror show like London.

I agree and that's why I think the problem cannot be solved in private hands but with communal ownership.

by awild 5y ago

I agree and that's why I think the problem cannot be solved in private hands but with communal ownership.

If you permit enough new housing to satisfy demand, that would also solve the problem. As long as insufficient new housing is being built, prices will go up on market rate housing. The lucky few who manage to get into price controlled housing will have better prices, but everyone else will face higher costs or be unable to live in a region entirely. One thing is for sure: as long as any private housing ownership is allowed, rich people aren't going to be the ones left high and dry.

awild 5y ago
The amount of new apts would be dramatically high to curb prices and make them realistic again. And Berlin is probably also not able to magically create as much new living space as is needed in that short of a time frame especially given the developers unwillingness to build affordable housing. I think where we probably fundamentally don't agree is that not all things need to be provided through a market. (or I think my point is more so that we've at least observed it not reall working here, so we could at least try a different strategy or multitudes and see how far those take us)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  > The amount of new apts would be dramatically high to curb prices and make them realistic again I'm fine with short term patches to help with the acute issues, but fundamentally unless a lot of housing is built, there are going to be some people suffering in the housing market. Either it will be poor people paying a lot for housing, or it will be poor people who are unable to win lotteries to get into public housing who then cannot afford housing at all. Whether the housing is publicly or privately owned is just pushing sand around the sandbox. It just changes exactly who the winners and losers are, but not the number of people losing. > I think where we probably fundamentally don't agree is that not all things need to be provided through a market. I don't hold this belief. There is no fundamental disagreement on this score between us.

notanzaiiswear 5y ago

The problem is: who gets the cheap housing in communal ownership? Supply is limited. So if you don't pick the person who is willing to pay the most, who do you give the apartment to? Who gets to decide? Are you sure you want to live in that kind of world, where some political elite gets to decide your fate?

awild 5y ago
There is already communal property in Berlin and all over Europe. Its not some grim socialist dystopia. They serve under the same conditions as private companies just don't have to completely bend over to shareholders wishes. Vienna the city for example is the biggest landlord in Europe. Obviously we need more housing but until then we also need to ensure that people with normal incomes can also afford to live _in_ the City.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
yunohn 5y ago
> Are you sure you want to live in that kind of world, where some political elite gets to decide your fate? Whenever people say stuff like this, I wonder if they’ve ever taken a moment to look around themselves and see that it is already that way. The current housing problem is also orchestrated by the same political elite…
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  There is a difference between policies making your desired place more expensive, and being literally dependent on some corrupt government officials, who is handing out apartments as favors for allies, or just for bribes.
bakuninsbart 5y ago
A number of public housing here in Berlin is reserved for people making less than a certain amount, having no job at all, or working/living in precarious situations. You can apply for that status at the local gov. It is not flawless, of course, but it at least avoids segregation. I live in a district that was originally working class, and is being very fastly gentrified now (yuppie myself I guess), and it just sucks that people who've lived here all their lives have to move to completely new environments because this is now an area desirable desirable for rich people. Same with small businesses, one of my favorite bars closed down recently due to some English billionaires wanting to turn the house into higher margin living. Vice did a documentary on it called "Punks vs. Billionaires". For the people living here, who live in small flats and still pay half their income to it, these "living room" bars, where you do not have to buy to be welcome were absolutely essential. But they all get destroyed now. Almost all new private housing is for richer people, because they are the most profitable, and lots of them move over at the moment. The state needs to step in to make sure that normal people can still live a decent life around here, too, lest we become a horror show like London.