4 ms·

The real danger is to the psyche from monoamine oxidase inhibition. Beer is a mashed beverage, the boiling of the mash generates Harmala alkaloids. Alcohol is j

The real danger is to the psyche from monoamine oxidase inhibition. Beer is a mashed beverage, the boiling of the mash generates Harmala alkaloids. Alcohol is just one part of the story.

lend000 5y ago
Any sources? No clear conclusions about danger show up in a quick Google for concentrated MAO inhibitors, let alone the incidental quantities you would be exposed to in a daily beer.
- eurasiantiger 5y ago
  See my other reply. The quantities are not ”incidental” in daily use, because these alkaloids tend to get stored in brain fatty tissues and have a rather long half-life, measured in weeks.
isoprophlex 5y ago
Unless you're drinking tobacco beer, or a peganum harmala infused brew, I don't think there are MAOI's present in beer. A quick google search doesn't really show anything as well, can you cite any sources?
- eurasiantiger 5y ago
  Sure. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1541-4337.2010.00141.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1541-4337... (See table 22) https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1530-0277.1988.tb00264.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1530-0277....
  - lend000 5y ago
    Is there an archive link to the second article? The conclusion is not available... I find the premise interesting, but consider how many supplements/drugs intentionally inhibit MAO's at much higher than ng/L quantities and how promising they seem for Parkinson's (there seem to be more positive studies than negative studies, though the measured effect in both types tends to be quite small). It seems unlikely to be the critical factor determining health effects in alcoholic beverages.
    - smichel17 5y ago
      https://www.sci-hub.ru/https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1530-0277.1988.tb00264.x https://www.sci-hub.ru/https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/a...
      - lend000 5y ago
        Thanks. Their conclusion: "The contribution of harman in alcoholic beverages to the overall pharmacological and/or toxicological effects of the amine and its relationship to alcoholism needs to be investigated."
        eurasiantiger 5y ago
        And this would be that investigation, from 1996! https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8651457/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8651457/
        ProjectArcturis 5y ago
        Just once, I'd like to read a scientific paper that concludes, "We have completed study of this field. No further research is necessary."
        popcube 5y ago
        lung cancer and cigarette
        eurasiantiger 5y ago
        Not by a long shot. The average person still thinks the culprit is nicotine, when nicotine is rather harmless compared to the addictiveness of concommittantly administered Harmala alkaloids, and to the damage caused by inhaling nano-/microparticulate matter and hot combustion gases.
    - eurasiantiger 5y ago
      A lot of things inhibit the monoamine oxidases, but not that many things inhibit them at such small quantities, implying that these Harmala alkaloids are exceptionally bioactive.
  - isoprophlex 5y ago
    Interesting, thanks! So, these MAOIs are not present in the ingredients of beer/wine, but are instead thermally produced (probably some cyclization reactions involving tryptophan or tyrosine?) Anyway, judging by those tables the problem isn't unique to beer and wine; many other foodstuffs in there as well. And the doses are so low that I don't think you can conclude that beer consumption causes poisoning by monoamine oxidase inhibitors. Those tables show 1-100 microgram/L concentrations of MAOIs. Compare that to eg. harmaline that requires >100 mg doses for pharmacologically meaningful effects, even accounting for slow metabolism and dose accumulation it seems farfetched.
    - eurasiantiger 5y ago
      The problem is not the MAO activity per se: although harman and norharman can cause essential tremor, depression and anxiety, as well as definitely worsen PTSD, some of the MAO-B-inhibiting Harmala alkaloids are beneficial in e.g. Parkinson’s disease. The problem is that the Harmala alkaloids include some neurotoxic ones that cause Parkinson’s disease, and it’s practically impossible to keep them from forming in the same process.

The real danger is to the psyche from monoamine oxidase inhibition. Beer is a mashed beverage, the boiling of the mash generates Harmala alkaloids. Alcohol is just one part of the story.

lend000 5y ago

Any sources? No clear conclusions about danger show up in a quick Google for concentrated MAO inhibitors, let alone the incidental quantities you would be exposed to in a daily beer.

eurasiantiger 5y ago
See my other reply. The quantities are not ”incidental” in daily use, because these alkaloids tend to get stored in brain fatty tissues and have a rather long half-life, measured in weeks.

isoprophlex 5y ago

Unless you're drinking tobacco beer, or a peganum harmala infused brew, I don't think there are MAOI's present in beer. A quick google search doesn't really show anything as well, can you cite any sources?

eurasiantiger 5y ago
Sure. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1541-4337.2010.00141.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1541-4337... (See table 22) https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1530-0277.1988.tb00264.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1530-0277....
- lend000 5y ago
  Is there an archive link to the second article? The conclusion is not available... I find the premise interesting, but consider how many supplements/drugs intentionally inhibit MAO's at much higher than ng/L quantities and how promising they seem for Parkinson's (there seem to be more positive studies than negative studies, though the measured effect in both types tends to be quite small). It seems unlikely to be the critical factor determining health effects in alcoholic beverages.
  - smichel17 5y ago
    https://www.sci-hub.ru/https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1530-0277.1988.tb00264.x https://www.sci-hub.ru/https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/a...
    - lend000 5y ago
      Thanks. Their conclusion: "The contribution of harman in alcoholic beverages to the overall pharmacological and/or toxicological effects of the amine and its relationship to alcoholism needs to be investigated."
      - eurasiantiger 5y ago
        And this would be that investigation, from 1996! https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8651457/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8651457/
      - ProjectArcturis 5y ago
        Just once, I'd like to read a scientific paper that concludes, "We have completed study of this field. No further research is necessary."
        popcube 5y ago
        lung cancer and cigarette
        eurasiantiger 5y ago
        Not by a long shot. The average person still thinks the culprit is nicotine, when nicotine is rather harmless compared to the addictiveness of concommittantly administered Harmala alkaloids, and to the damage caused by inhaling nano-/microparticulate matter and hot combustion gases.
  - eurasiantiger 5y ago
    A lot of things inhibit the monoamine oxidases, but not that many things inhibit them at such small quantities, implying that these Harmala alkaloids are exceptionally bioactive.
- isoprophlex 5y ago
  Interesting, thanks! So, these MAOIs are not present in the ingredients of beer/wine, but are instead thermally produced (probably some cyclization reactions involving tryptophan or tyrosine?) Anyway, judging by those tables the problem isn't unique to beer and wine; many other foodstuffs in there as well. And the doses are so low that I don't think you can conclude that beer consumption causes poisoning by monoamine oxidase inhibitors. Those tables show 1-100 microgram/L concentrations of MAOIs. Compare that to eg. harmaline that requires >100 mg doses for pharmacologically meaningful effects, even accounting for slow metabolism and dose accumulation it seems farfetched.
  - eurasiantiger 5y ago
    The problem is not the MAO activity per se: although harman and norharman can cause essential tremor, depression and anxiety, as well as definitely worsen PTSD, some of the MAO-B-inhibiting Harmala alkaloids are beneficial in e.g. Parkinson’s disease. The problem is that the Harmala alkaloids include some neurotoxic ones that cause Parkinson’s disease, and it’s practically impossible to keep them from forming in the same process.