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Sorry, if you won’t concede that the vaccines save lives then it is not possible to have a further discussion in good faith. They didn’t get a test but they go

Sorry, if you won’t concede that the vaccines save lives then it is not possible to have a further discussion in good faith. They didn’t get a test but they got symptomatic covid at the height of both waves.

logicalmonster 5y ago
I try and use my words very precisely, so I will state this. As far as I can tell, the data shows that the Covid vaccines, on an individual level, do seem to dramatically minimize symptoms. As far as science can tell, the vaccines usually turn a severe Covid outcome (which is still very rare if you're not geriatric, fat, or otherwise unhealthy) into something far less severe. We're basically in agreement with that, right? Let's stop there for a second and analyze the current social situation up to here. At least 50% of people in the US are fully vaccinated. And more people have at least 1 injection and at least some protection from symptoms. And many more have natural immunity from past cases too. If the vaccines were having the exact social effect we expected, it would be reasonable to assume that cases and deaths would be falling in light of increased vaccination. Cases and deaths are not falling though, right? So what gives? Something doesn't add up with the vaccines' overall impact. If there's a reasonable theory why this is, please explain. This isn't just an issue with stubborn Americans. I believe that no democracy has been more aggressive about vaccinations than Israel, and they're having significant problems right now too. If the vaccines will work on a societal level as intended, what gives? There's more than one theory here, but I'd suggest that the properties of the vaccines (minimizing symptoms) makes it so that vaccinated people don't quickly realize that they're sick and go about their business normally and some can act as unwitting super-spreaders. This wouldn't happen as readily with unvaccinated people who feel that they're sick and would be more likely to stay at home. Ironically, the mass vaccinations may be driving the spread. Another scarier theory is that these leaky vaccines are creating a Marek's Disease type of situation in humans where the vaccinated are creating the mutations that are killing the unvaccinated. Another possibility is of course that mutations are being driven by the unvaccinated. (it's a possibility worth mentioning, but I'd discount it as unlikely given how viruses tend to mutate towards being less lethal in order to spread more) Am I trying to have a discussion in good faith or not? I think I am and am bringing up some reasonable points. Just my $0.02.
- jasonlaramburu 5y ago
  > If there's a reasonable theory why this is, please explain. The % of Americans fully vaccinated is too low to achieve herd immunity against the more transmissible delta variant. > no democracy has been more aggressive about vaccinations than Israel Israel is no longer even in the top 30 countries in terms of % of population fully vaccinated. Where they are having success is controlling breakthrough infections after a 3rd dose. > I'd suggest that the properties of the vaccines (minimizing symptoms) makes it so that vaccinated people don't quickly realize that they're sick and go about their business normally and some can act as unwitting super-spreaders. There is no evidence the vaccine delays symptom onset. It reduces the chances of severe symptoms and death. > I'd discount it as unlikely given how viruses tend to mutate towards being less lethal in order to spread more The delta variant originated in India, which was at the time the world’s largest population of unvaccinated people. No variants have emerged from highly vaccinated populations.

logicalmonster 5y ago

I try and use my words very precisely, so I will state this. As far as I can tell, the data shows that the Covid vaccines, on an individual level, do seem to dramatically minimize symptoms. As far as science can tell, the vaccines usually turn a severe Covid outcome (which is still very rare if you're not geriatric, fat, or otherwise unhealthy) into something far less severe. We're basically in agreement with that, right? Let's stop there for a second and analyze the current social situation up to here. At least 50% of people in the US are fully vaccinated. And more people have at least 1 injection and at least some protection from symptoms. And many more have natural immunity from past cases too. If the vaccines were having the exact social effect we expected, it would be reasonable to assume that cases and deaths would be falling in light of increased vaccination. Cases and deaths are not falling though, right? So what gives? Something doesn't add up with the vaccines' overall impact. If there's a reasonable theory why this is, please explain. This isn't just an issue with stubborn Americans. I believe that no democracy has been more aggressive about vaccinations than Israel, and they're having significant problems right now too. If the vaccines will work on a societal level as intended, what gives? There's more than one theory here, but I'd suggest that the properties of the vaccines (minimizing symptoms) makes it so that vaccinated people don't quickly realize that they're sick and go about their business normally and some can act as unwitting super-spreaders. This wouldn't happen as readily with unvaccinated people who feel that they're sick and would be more likely to stay at home. Ironically, the mass vaccinations may be driving the spread. Another scarier theory is that these leaky vaccines are creating a Marek's Disease type of situation in humans where the vaccinated are creating the mutations that are killing the unvaccinated. Another possibility is of course that mutations are being driven by the unvaccinated. (it's a possibility worth mentioning, but I'd discount it as unlikely given how viruses tend to mutate towards being less lethal in order to spread more) Am I trying to have a discussion in good faith or not? I think I am and am bringing up some reasonable points. Just my $0.02.

jasonlaramburu 5y ago
> If there's a reasonable theory why this is, please explain. The % of Americans fully vaccinated is too low to achieve herd immunity against the more transmissible delta variant. > no democracy has been more aggressive about vaccinations than Israel Israel is no longer even in the top 30 countries in terms of % of population fully vaccinated. Where they are having success is controlling breakthrough infections after a 3rd dose. > I'd suggest that the properties of the vaccines (minimizing symptoms) makes it so that vaccinated people don't quickly realize that they're sick and go about their business normally and some can act as unwitting super-spreaders. There is no evidence the vaccine delays symptom onset. It reduces the chances of severe symptoms and death. > I'd discount it as unlikely given how viruses tend to mutate towards being less lethal in order to spread more The delta variant originated in India, which was at the time the world’s largest population of unvaccinated people. No variants have emerged from highly vaccinated populations.