5 ms·

I applaud the guts that it would have taken to do something like that. That one hour meeting uncovered so many issues with the company that everyone probably al

by xmprt 5y ago

I applaud the guts that it would have taken to do something like that. That one hour meeting uncovered so many issues with the company that everyone probably already knew but didn't want to talk about - bikeshedding; long, pointless meetings; incompetence and apathy; etc. I sometimes dream of doing something like that when there's endless back and forth about the "right" way to do something (in my experience, no one is actually looking for the right way. It's all just politics and laziness which ends up in a subpar compromise). How did you convince people to sit through the entire hour once they caught on to what you were doing?

DoreenMichele 5y ago
"Guts" sometimes means "Something's gotta give or I'm outta here anyway." Other comments here suggest that was likely the case. Always be leery of emulating such actions. No matter how much detail they give, you will never know the full context and how well your situation compares to theirs.
- xmprt 5y ago
  That's why it's only a dream ;)
- noduerme 5y ago
  Hang on. Let's assume the story is false. Why would you want to discourage anyone from having the courage of their conviction that they could find a better way to do something their bosses say is impossible?
  - DoreenMichele 5y ago
    Someone with real conviction isn't going to be talked out of it by a two paragraph comment by a random internet stranger on HN. You are reading way to much motive and way too much power into a casual observation about how so-called courage is sometimes anything but. People who seem "brave" may not feel they are at all brave. They may feel fed up, resigned to their doom, disgusted, defeated, like arguing or cooperating with known liars is utterly pointless, like they are screwed anyway and nothing they do will ever fix it. Sometimes it's nice to get closure and know you weren't imagining things, it really is as bad as you feared and you can stop wasting your time and energy on a situation that simply will never go anyplace acceptable no matter what you do.
    - noduerme 5y ago
      So... maybe I misunderstood your comment. Your advice was to be leery of such actions. Are you saying to be leery because you believe those actions arise from a place of despair more often than from trying to remedy a situation or to be successful? What would you tell someone who is genuinely trying to communicate a message to their boss's boss, about how things are mismanaged or how they could be done better... assuming that person is not lashing out from despair but actually wants to help the company?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - noduerme 5y ago
      This was in response to your prev post. I'm glad you answered the question directly with your own opinion. (I don't know why people don't do that more often). I think that is a wise and well thought out piece of advice that should be expanded upon. I did want to get past the layers of what you were assuming this person had experienced or what you assumed naive readers would do if they copied it. One thing I've learned - a reason I used to be a bad writer, and a reason why social media doesn't work well - is that I tend to gloss over four or five assumptions about what the reader understands or knows, and jump straight to a conclusion that can come off as weird or out of step. It does help to pry open the thought process that led to a warning or a sweeping statement... often, the thought process is what people are most interested in. On this issue, I've never worked anywhere I didn't either start with or quickly open a direct line to speak with the owner of a company. I consider it their right to know what's going on - and I never sought advancement or raises, and more often quit, but I do think there's something to be said for sticking your head up and taking the risk of having it cut off, to prove you're right about something. That derives from a different impulse than the need for popular acclaim, and it's usually dangerous.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Does this make you better off besides feeling great for an afternoon? At best you put yourself into the middle of a political fight fought levels above your head. Why put your job on the line for no reward? Who cares if their Oracle queries are slow?
    - esyir 5y ago
      Because the op has pride in what he does. Because he cares more about getting it done than the political faffery. That's a my take on it, anyway
      - galaxyLogic 5y ago
        Right, some people want to do a good job and also get recognized for it. Whereas other people want to use politics to prosper from the work and ideas of others. The latter type don't care whose idea it was, who implemented it and did all the work, as long as they the gamers get the credit and rewards for it. That's just life right? Yes but the point is for the former type of people it is very frustrating to work with the latter type, because not only you have to do a great job, you also have to put in a lot effort to fight the politicians. It is often better to get the hell out of Dodge rather than stick around with the bandits.
      - noduerme 5y ago
        Well said. A good piece of work is its own satisfaction, and a broken piece of code is misery for everyone. People who fix broken things just because they're broken and should be fixed are the lifeblood of any organization. Once they're displaced by people who don't know, understand, or care, the organization is basically a zombie.
      - sdevonoes 5y ago
        But software engineering IS about politics as well! We always think that SE is only about tech and being right and smart... the reality is: one needs to be technically right AND play politics in order to achieve anything within a company. lmilcin was probably technically right, but he didn't play well the politics part of the equation. Result? He had to quit, and he company didn't get a better search solution.

by xmprt 5y ago

DoreenMichele 5y ago

"Guts" sometimes means "Something's gotta give or I'm outta here anyway." Other comments here suggest that was likely the case. Always be leery of emulating such actions. No matter how much detail they give, you will never know the full context and how well your situation compares to theirs.

xmprt 5y ago
That's why it's only a dream ;)
noduerme 5y ago
Hang on. Let's assume the story is false. Why would you want to discourage anyone from having the courage of their conviction that they could find a better way to do something their bosses say is impossible?
- DoreenMichele 5y ago
  Someone with real conviction isn't going to be talked out of it by a two paragraph comment by a random internet stranger on HN. You are reading way to much motive and way too much power into a casual observation about how so-called courage is sometimes anything but. People who seem "brave" may not feel they are at all brave. They may feel fed up, resigned to their doom, disgusted, defeated, like arguing or cooperating with known liars is utterly pointless, like they are screwed anyway and nothing they do will ever fix it. Sometimes it's nice to get closure and know you weren't imagining things, it really is as bad as you feared and you can stop wasting your time and energy on a situation that simply will never go anyplace acceptable no matter what you do.
  - noduerme 5y ago
    So... maybe I misunderstood your comment. Your advice was to be leery of such actions. Are you saying to be leery because you believe those actions arise from a place of despair more often than from trying to remedy a situation or to be successful? What would you tell someone who is genuinely trying to communicate a message to their boss's boss, about how things are mismanaged or how they could be done better... assuming that person is not lashing out from despair but actually wants to help the company?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - noduerme 5y ago
    This was in response to your prev post. I'm glad you answered the question directly with your own opinion. (I don't know why people don't do that more often). I think that is a wise and well thought out piece of advice that should be expanded upon. I did want to get past the layers of what you were assuming this person had experienced or what you assumed naive readers would do if they copied it. One thing I've learned - a reason I used to be a bad writer, and a reason why social media doesn't work well - is that I tend to gloss over four or five assumptions about what the reader understands or knows, and jump straight to a conclusion that can come off as weird or out of step. It does help to pry open the thought process that led to a warning or a sweeping statement... often, the thought process is what people are most interested in. On this issue, I've never worked anywhere I didn't either start with or quickly open a direct line to speak with the owner of a company. I consider it their right to know what's going on - and I never sought advancement or raises, and more often quit, but I do think there's something to be said for sticking your head up and taking the risk of having it cut off, to prove you're right about something. That derives from a different impulse than the need for popular acclaim, and it's usually dangerous.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Does this make you better off besides feeling great for an afternoon? At best you put yourself into the middle of a political fight fought levels above your head. Why put your job on the line for no reward? Who cares if their Oracle queries are slow?
  - esyir 5y ago
    Because the op has pride in what he does. Because he cares more about getting it done than the political faffery. That's a my take on it, anyway
    - galaxyLogic 5y ago
      Right, some people want to do a good job and also get recognized for it. Whereas other people want to use politics to prosper from the work and ideas of others. The latter type don't care whose idea it was, who implemented it and did all the work, as long as they the gamers get the credit and rewards for it. That's just life right? Yes but the point is for the former type of people it is very frustrating to work with the latter type, because not only you have to do a great job, you also have to put in a lot effort to fight the politicians. It is often better to get the hell out of Dodge rather than stick around with the bandits.
    - noduerme 5y ago
      Well said. A good piece of work is its own satisfaction, and a broken piece of code is misery for everyone. People who fix broken things just because they're broken and should be fixed are the lifeblood of any organization. Once they're displaced by people who don't know, understand, or care, the organization is basically a zombie.
    - sdevonoes 5y ago
      But software engineering IS about politics as well! We always think that SE is only about tech and being right and smart... the reality is: one needs to be technically right AND play politics in order to achieve anything within a company. lmilcin was probably technically right, but he didn't play well the politics part of the equation. Result? He had to quit, and he company didn't get a better search solution.