4 ms·

China is Australia's largest trade partner, and China owns tons of Australian real estate (residential and industrial), and one out of 20 Australians considers

China is Australia's largest trade partner, and China owns tons of Australian real estate (residential and industrial), and one out of 20 Australians considers themselves of Chinese ancestry. It doesn't seem to make much sense to conceive of Australia and China as submarine warfare opponents.

tomohawk 5y ago
France was Germany's largest trading partner prior to WWI
- Rebelgecko 5y ago
  The US was also Japan's top trading partner a decade before Pearl Harbor
hulahoof 5y ago
We are very protective of our territorial waters, not all submarine usage is warfare.
- ldargin 5y ago
  Conventional subs are quieter than nuclear subs, so are for defending coastal waters not far from port. But nuclear subs project more power, since they can stay underwater for months at a time.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Lol, no one is using nuclear subs to defend territorial waters. Their job is to help the US run a blockade against China and it's trading partners, nothing else.
  - dnautics 5y ago
    Specifically in this case it's to build submarines which can chase after submarines which are trying to break us blockade. If china invades Taiwan, the obvious next step is to blockade Chinese oil imports, which cripples upwards of 60-80% of Chinese domestic food production, but is justifiable on "military grounds" and definitely prevents china from creating supply lines outside of the first island chain. There is no sensible equivalent retaliatory action on the part of china after such a blockade, as the us is currently food and energy self-sufficient.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      Their job isn't to chase other submarines next to Chinese waters. That is suicidal. Chinese submarines are almost as stealthy as the Virginia class, and they'll have to operate in the middle of Chinese anti-submarine warfare. That is to say, they won't survive long. Their job is to actually sink the merchant ships. The US can't do that easily with surface combatants, because getting close to a strait means compromising your position, which means risking getting suck by a Chinese hypersonic missile. There is absolutely a sensible retaliation from China, that's to sink the US fleet in the pacific using ground-based weapons which can't be destroyed. Hence why submarines are interesting to the US, it's the only way to force a blockade without risking destruction by very powerful Chinese anti-shipping weapons that can't be destroyed with ease. Also, the entire blockade strategy itself is a risky gambit. China has enough stockpiled as far as oil goes to guarantee 100 days at full consumption without any imports, and before any invasion of Taiwan they would make sure to secure enough overland imports, stockpiles, and domestic production to allow for over a year of oil. Meanwhile the political costs of blockading the Malacca Straits and co will be devastating to the US. It will be the US's Suez Canal Crisis. China will keep Taiwan anyways. China is definitely going to break through the first island chain. 4-8 Virginia class submarines are not gonna change anything there. They are not invulnerable superweapons, and if they were the US already was going to use them. Without air supremacy and given the massive concentration of Chinese anti-submarine assets, operating in the first island chain is a completely suicidal option. The only possible way for this to happen is if somehow the US manages to get Russia on board with a blockade.
      - dnautics 5y ago
        What are the political costs of blockading the Malacca straights? China sentiment worldwide is at rock-bottom due to wolf warrior diplomacy and belt and road corruption, Xinjiang, etc. Hell, public sentiment for boycotting the Beijing Olympics is >50% in Canada. If china invades Taiwan, I'd be surprised if most countries don't jump at the chance to screw over china. It might not even be necessary to work that hard at a blockade. If there's any hot action in the south china sea, most oil shippers are going to cease operations voluntarily because they don't want their ship to be accidentally shot down by either side. >100 days That's 3 months. Not very much.
makomk 5y ago
China is already starting to leverage that trade with Australia to push demands that are fundamentally incompatible with Australia's status as a democratic, independent country, plus they've been carrying out aggressive military expansionist manoeuvrers that are pissing off much closer regional allies. France and other EU countries still have this idea that they can somehow balance themselves between China and the US, despite China already openly throwing its weight around against elected politicians who so much as criticise it.

tomohawk 5y ago

France was Germany's largest trading partner prior to WWI

Rebelgecko 5y ago
The US was also Japan's top trading partner a decade before Pearl Harbor

hulahoof 5y ago

We are very protective of our territorial waters, not all submarine usage is warfare.

ldargin 5y ago
Conventional subs are quieter than nuclear subs, so are for defending coastal waters not far from port. But nuclear subs project more power, since they can stay underwater for months at a time.
sudosysgen 5y ago
Lol, no one is using nuclear subs to defend territorial waters. Their job is to help the US run a blockade against China and it's trading partners, nothing else.
- dnautics 5y ago
  Specifically in this case it's to build submarines which can chase after submarines which are trying to break us blockade. If china invades Taiwan, the obvious next step is to blockade Chinese oil imports, which cripples upwards of 60-80% of Chinese domestic food production, but is justifiable on "military grounds" and definitely prevents china from creating supply lines outside of the first island chain. There is no sensible equivalent retaliatory action on the part of china after such a blockade, as the us is currently food and energy self-sufficient.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Their job isn't to chase other submarines next to Chinese waters. That is suicidal. Chinese submarines are almost as stealthy as the Virginia class, and they'll have to operate in the middle of Chinese anti-submarine warfare. That is to say, they won't survive long. Their job is to actually sink the merchant ships. The US can't do that easily with surface combatants, because getting close to a strait means compromising your position, which means risking getting suck by a Chinese hypersonic missile. There is absolutely a sensible retaliation from China, that's to sink the US fleet in the pacific using ground-based weapons which can't be destroyed. Hence why submarines are interesting to the US, it's the only way to force a blockade without risking destruction by very powerful Chinese anti-shipping weapons that can't be destroyed with ease. Also, the entire blockade strategy itself is a risky gambit. China has enough stockpiled as far as oil goes to guarantee 100 days at full consumption without any imports, and before any invasion of Taiwan they would make sure to secure enough overland imports, stockpiles, and domestic production to allow for over a year of oil. Meanwhile the political costs of blockading the Malacca Straits and co will be devastating to the US. It will be the US's Suez Canal Crisis. China will keep Taiwan anyways. China is definitely going to break through the first island chain. 4-8 Virginia class submarines are not gonna change anything there. They are not invulnerable superweapons, and if they were the US already was going to use them. Without air supremacy and given the massive concentration of Chinese anti-submarine assets, operating in the first island chain is a completely suicidal option. The only possible way for this to happen is if somehow the US manages to get Russia on board with a blockade.
    - dnautics 5y ago
      What are the political costs of blockading the Malacca straights? China sentiment worldwide is at rock-bottom due to wolf warrior diplomacy and belt and road corruption, Xinjiang, etc. Hell, public sentiment for boycotting the Beijing Olympics is >50% in Canada. If china invades Taiwan, I'd be surprised if most countries don't jump at the chance to screw over china. It might not even be necessary to work that hard at a blockade. If there's any hot action in the south china sea, most oil shippers are going to cease operations voluntarily because they don't want their ship to be accidentally shot down by either side. >100 days That's 3 months. Not very much.

makomk 5y ago

China is already starting to leverage that trade with Australia to push demands that are fundamentally incompatible with Australia's status as a democratic, independent country, plus they've been carrying out aggressive military expansionist manoeuvrers that are pissing off much closer regional allies. France and other EU countries still have this idea that they can somehow balance themselves between China and the US, despite China already openly throwing its weight around against elected politicians who so much as criticise it.