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French contract took 4 years to be negotiated, the US one less than 6 months, in total secret with no public check… expect big surprises at the end, US weapons

French contract took 4 years to be negotiated, the US one less than 6 months, in total secret with no public check… expect big surprises at the end, US weapons program are not known to never overrun their costs

tkojames 5y ago
For sure all that is right as well. But if I was in the Australian shoes this is just to good of deal from US and UK to turn down.
enkid 5y ago
The cost on the French contract had already gone up by tens of billions of dollars, and nothing had been delivered.
- mahkeiro 5y ago
  UK frigate program for Australia navy is having the same issues: https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/getting-real-about-the-schedule-for-australias-future-frigates/ https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/getting-real-about-the-sch...
mytailorisrich 5y ago
Of course, 'negotiation' concludes faster when it's one way.
i_am_proteus 5y ago
The most recent submarine program (Virginia class) was effectively on-budget.
- edrxty 5y ago
  Probably due to its predecessor, the Seawolf, from which it was derived ended up being wildly cost ineffective.
  - i_am_proteus 5y ago
    That is not correct. Seawolf was cancelled and only three units were built, causing R&D costs to be spread across those three units, raising unit price. It was cancelled because it was expensive, but it was ordered during the end of the cold war and was radically more capable than the class it was meant to replace. This cost was acceptable at time of order, but then subject to budget cuts after the USSR collapsed. This raised the per-unit cost, but lowered the overall cost. The eventual replacement (Virginia) ended up being more evolutionary from the previous class (not from Seawolf) than revolutionary, but much cheaper.
    - edrxty 5y ago
      Do you have a source for this? The Virginia shares many more features with the Seawolf that the LA class. The Virginia is basically a scaled down Seawolf hull with a different weapons arrangement.
      - i_am_proteus 5y ago
        Look at the USS San Juan and later hulls. My source is having been on all three classes of submarine.
        GareyBaldo 5y ago
        Concur. Unlikely to find prompt jumps in design that weren't previously field tested. Technologies pioneered by Seawolf class were rolled into the VA class, but ultimately decades of building 688s was more valuable than 3 Seawolfs (seawolves?)

tkojames 5y ago

For sure all that is right as well. But if I was in the Australian shoes this is just to good of deal from US and UK to turn down.

enkid 5y ago

The cost on the French contract had already gone up by tens of billions of dollars, and nothing had been delivered.

mahkeiro 5y ago
UK frigate program for Australia navy is having the same issues: https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/getting-real-about-the-schedule-for-australias-future-frigates/ https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/getting-real-about-the-sch...

mytailorisrich 5y ago

Of course, 'negotiation' concludes faster when it's one way.

i_am_proteus 5y ago

The most recent submarine program (Virginia class) was effectively on-budget.

edrxty 5y ago
Probably due to its predecessor, the Seawolf, from which it was derived ended up being wildly cost ineffective.
- i_am_proteus 5y ago
  That is not correct. Seawolf was cancelled and only three units were built, causing R&D costs to be spread across those three units, raising unit price. It was cancelled because it was expensive, but it was ordered during the end of the cold war and was radically more capable than the class it was meant to replace. This cost was acceptable at time of order, but then subject to budget cuts after the USSR collapsed. This raised the per-unit cost, but lowered the overall cost. The eventual replacement (Virginia) ended up being more evolutionary from the previous class (not from Seawolf) than revolutionary, but much cheaper.
  - edrxty 5y ago
    Do you have a source for this? The Virginia shares many more features with the Seawolf that the LA class. The Virginia is basically a scaled down Seawolf hull with a different weapons arrangement.
    - i_am_proteus 5y ago
      Look at the USS San Juan and later hulls. My source is having been on all three classes of submarine.
      - GareyBaldo 5y ago
        Concur. Unlikely to find prompt jumps in design that weren't previously field tested. Technologies pioneered by Seawolf class were rolled into the VA class, but ultimately decades of building 688s was more valuable than 3 Seawolfs (seawolves?)