6 ms·

Shocking price of gas? I’m in Europe and have hoped for gas prices to climb at least 10x since I was in high school. We have a relatively good public transport

Shocking price of gas? I’m in Europe and have hoped for gas prices to climb at least 10x since I was in high school. We have a relatively good public transport system yet the last 5-10 years have seen insane car ownership growth and even the small town my parents live in is now jammed with cars every morning. Everyone should not own a car, it’s unsustainable both for the planet and for the road system.

simonklitj 5y ago
Don’t you suppose public transportation costs would skyrocket with 10x the gas prices? Imagine 15 euros for a liter. Holy yikes. Of course, electric vehicles would be a part of a cheaper solution.
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
  Public transportation around me is one of the earliest adopters of EVs.
- namdnay 5y ago
  public utilities don't usually pay taxes on gas
  - simonklitj 5y ago
    Which, in Washington state, saves them 0.5$ a gallon. Still 3.29 or something, then. I think busses get 3 miles to the gallon. That's like a dollar per mile, still.
    - namdnay 5y ago
      And that’s is the US with absurdly low gas taxes. In Europe, taxes represent more than half the price of gas
- s0rce 5y ago
  If the price of gas increases are largely due to taxes which is sometimes the case it could be easy to simply offer rebates to public transit companies, just like you can buy diesel for farm equipment or heating without paying the road taxes.
- Nasrudith 5y ago
  Aren't gas prices relatively negligible compared to driver salaries and other vehicle costs?
  - simonklitj 5y ago
    Sure, maybe. But even with no taxes on gas, (in WA state), they pay 3.29$ per gallon or so. With buses doing 3 mpg (https://afdc.energy.gov/conserve/mass_transit.html https://afdc.energy.gov/conserve/mass_transit.html), that's still a dollar a mile. According to Indeed, driver salary here is about 20$/hr. Not sure how many miles a transit bus does an hour, byt maybe somewhere in the 20-30 range? Honestly, no clue. So that equates maybe to the same as the driver's salary, right now. Assuming gas prices were 10x (32.9$/gal), they'd be paying 200$ an hour just for gas. Alright, this has gotten ridiculous. Anyway, higher gas prices would just drive alternative adoption, and that's good. I was just selfishly thinking of me having to drive my car with those prices ;)
ChinceParming 5y ago
Quite a mind-opening way to think of things. I was like wtf 10x gas prices, but then you followed it up thoughfully. You should be a politician. In lieu of mailing lists to subscribe to, I'll be mandated to insert this comment.
choeger 5y ago
Did you ever consider why the town is jammed with cars? Or why big cities are filled with them? Cars are enormously expensive right now. Owning a decent-sized family car costs around 400€ every month right now, a used one, mind you. The fact that so many people pay that cost and the inconveniences of maintenance and searching for parking space should motivate you to think about the utility of car ownership. Where I live, public transportation is great. I don't think it can get much better, practically. Yet, I have several modes of transportation where I cannot use it: Traveling out of the big city or to orthogonally to the main public transportation routes, or with small kids, or with large luggage, with a week worth of shopping bags, or when I have to get rid of garbage... What a big city needs is threefold: * Slow, respectful, traffic (30kph should work) -except for some big roads- shared between all vehicles (bikes included) * Zero-emission vehicles * Enough parking spaces (that should cost money) for all vehicles. In order to get there, we will have to reduce the amount of apartments per sqkm and even more so the amount of office space and shops. This will work in two ways: It will naturally reduce traffic and free space for car parks.
- pertymcpert 5y ago
  > In order to get there, we will have to reduce the amount of apartments per sqkm and even more so the amount of office space and shops. This will work in two ways: It will naturally reduce traffic and free space for car parks. This sounds like prioritizing cars over people. What's the point?
  - criddell 5y ago
    > This sounds like prioritizing cars over people. The cars are used by people. If you prioritize for cars, you are prioritizing for those people.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    If you take choeger's point seriously, that even with all the cost and problems people still find great utility in cars, then creating an urban environment that doesn't have adequate room for cars seems like creating an environment that is hostile to the way people want to live.
yardie 5y ago
The price of gas primarily affect the poor way more than the rich. They both pay the same but while one is paying 15% of their wages for petrol, the other is paying <1%. Simultaneously, the poor are being pushed further from the urban core, and jobs, and are spending more, in time and money, to get to those jobs.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  That's the point. It forces the poors to live like "good poors" in an urban apartment and ride the bus rather than living on the outskirts and driving a shitbox. Of course the people that promote these policies have a less blunt way of putting it but that's basically the incentive they're going for.

simonklitj 5y ago

Don’t you suppose public transportation costs would skyrocket with 10x the gas prices? Imagine 15 euros for a liter. Holy yikes. Of course, electric vehicles would be a part of a cheaper solution.

isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
Public transportation around me is one of the earliest adopters of EVs.
namdnay 5y ago
public utilities don't usually pay taxes on gas
- simonklitj 5y ago
  Which, in Washington state, saves them 0.5$ a gallon. Still 3.29 or something, then. I think busses get 3 miles to the gallon. That's like a dollar per mile, still.
  - namdnay 5y ago
    And that’s is the US with absurdly low gas taxes. In Europe, taxes represent more than half the price of gas
s0rce 5y ago
If the price of gas increases are largely due to taxes which is sometimes the case it could be easy to simply offer rebates to public transit companies, just like you can buy diesel for farm equipment or heating without paying the road taxes.
Nasrudith 5y ago
Aren't gas prices relatively negligible compared to driver salaries and other vehicle costs?
- simonklitj 5y ago
  Sure, maybe. But even with no taxes on gas, (in WA state), they pay 3.29$ per gallon or so. With buses doing 3 mpg (https://afdc.energy.gov/conserve/mass_transit.html https://afdc.energy.gov/conserve/mass_transit.html), that's still a dollar a mile. According to Indeed, driver salary here is about 20$/hr. Not sure how many miles a transit bus does an hour, byt maybe somewhere in the 20-30 range? Honestly, no clue. So that equates maybe to the same as the driver's salary, right now. Assuming gas prices were 10x (32.9$/gal), they'd be paying 200$ an hour just for gas. Alright, this has gotten ridiculous. Anyway, higher gas prices would just drive alternative adoption, and that's good. I was just selfishly thinking of me having to drive my car with those prices ;)

ChinceParming 5y ago

Quite a mind-opening way to think of things. I was like wtf 10x gas prices, but then you followed it up thoughfully. You should be a politician. In lieu of mailing lists to subscribe to, I'll be mandated to insert this comment.

choeger 5y ago

Did you ever consider why the town is jammed with cars? Or why big cities are filled with them? Cars are enormously expensive right now. Owning a decent-sized family car costs around 400€ every month right now, a used one, mind you. The fact that so many people pay that cost and the inconveniences of maintenance and searching for parking space should motivate you to think about the utility of car ownership. Where I live, public transportation is great. I don't think it can get much better, practically. Yet, I have several modes of transportation where I cannot use it: Traveling out of the big city or to orthogonally to the main public transportation routes, or with small kids, or with large luggage, with a week worth of shopping bags, or when I have to get rid of garbage... What a big city needs is threefold: * Slow, respectful, traffic (30kph should work) -except for some big roads- shared between all vehicles (bikes included) * Zero-emission vehicles * Enough parking spaces (that should cost money) for all vehicles. In order to get there, we will have to reduce the amount of apartments per sqkm and even more so the amount of office space and shops. This will work in two ways: It will naturally reduce traffic and free space for car parks.

pertymcpert 5y ago
> In order to get there, we will have to reduce the amount of apartments per sqkm and even more so the amount of office space and shops. This will work in two ways: It will naturally reduce traffic and free space for car parks. This sounds like prioritizing cars over people. What's the point?
- criddell 5y ago
  > This sounds like prioritizing cars over people. The cars are used by people. If you prioritize for cars, you are prioritizing for those people.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  If you take choeger's point seriously, that even with all the cost and problems people still find great utility in cars, then creating an urban environment that doesn't have adequate room for cars seems like creating an environment that is hostile to the way people want to live.

yardie 5y ago

The price of gas primarily affect the poor way more than the rich. They both pay the same but while one is paying 15% of their wages for petrol, the other is paying <1%. Simultaneously, the poor are being pushed further from the urban core, and jobs, and are spending more, in time and money, to get to those jobs.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
That's the point. It forces the poors to live like "good poors" in an urban apartment and ride the bus rather than living on the outskirts and driving a shitbox. Of course the people that promote these policies have a less blunt way of putting it but that's basically the incentive they're going for.