4 ms·

Oh you mean like those people who fly around in private jets while admonishing people for inter alia flying on commercial airliners too much? (Remember: you're

Oh you mean like those people who fly around in private jets while admonishing people for inter alia flying on commercial airliners too much? (Remember: you're just a peasant. Money elevates you into a new ontic reality where the normal moral principles don't apply.)

CubsFan1060 5y ago
That's true. But that's everyone. I've yet to meet a single person who is willing to make the personal sacrifices needed to actually help the world. You get a bunch of normal people (i.e. 'peasants' if you wish) sitting around talking about how to save the environment while eating fruit grown in a faraway land and trucked to them in a refrigerated truck. Everyone wants to say the solution is that other people should change the way they do things, not themselves.
- ARandumGuy 5y ago
  You're absolutely right. I'll make a big personal sacrifice and close down my oil company. Everyone has to do their part, right? In seriousness, carbon emissions are overwhelmingly emitted from large corporations and state level actors (like the military). Which isn't to say that people shouldn't do what they can to reduce their own carbon footprint, but the world won't be saved if everyone buys local and starts biking to work.
  - CubsFan1060 5y ago
    “I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do.” ― Edward Everett Hale Good quote. But, if everyone buys local and starts biking to work, why would the oil companies keep producing as much oil?
  - Aunche 5y ago
    We don't have oil companies because shareholders like to pollute for fun. We have them to power refrigated trucks so that people can join enjoy seasonal grapes 365 days a year anywhere in the US. If an oil company gets shut down and people are unable to accept the quality of life decrease that comes with it, then they'll vote to open it back up again.
- only_as_i_fall 5y ago
  We just need to align incentives. If externalities were factored into the cost of imported fruits for example, it wouldn't even be a problem. As it stands do you even know what the relative carbon cost of growing or importing an apple vs a watermelon is in your area? Do you know how to tell if a fruit is grown locally or not while standing at the supermarket? Do you think the average person can reasonably be expected to make those judgements?
  - CubsFan1060 5y ago
    Some things yes, some things no. I suspect many people realize there are no local producers for a lot of things (I don't think North Dakota has a lot of Coconut production), and seasonality is also important (not a lot of apples are grown in January in New York). But even when it's obvious, people still make choices. Including externalities would be an interesting path. I don't know what that would realistically look like though. Gas tax?
    - only_as_i_fall 5y ago
      I'm very much in favor of a carbon tax that aims to capture most of all sources of pollution. If you just tax gas you could get into a situation where it's more profitable but more wasteful for example to grow produce hydroponically because diesel is highly taxed but electricity generated by burning natural gas is not. Just the effect of making less green options more expensive would help, but of course this would be even better if the money collected from such a tax was used to invest in green infrastructure which could balance the original pollution.
- SonicScrub 5y ago
  That's the whole problem isn't? The actions of any individual, or even the actions of everyone in a small-to-medium sized nation are just too small on their own to mark significant change. Too many people aren't willing to accept this simple fact: the standard of living in the cushy societies of the Western middle class is completely and utterly unsustainable. And probably never will be. Avoiding environmental degradation is simply not possible without a major quality of life reduction.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - CubsFan1060 5y ago
    I agree with the last part. There is a huge amount of moral licensing as well (I recycled this cardboard box, so flying to Aruba is ok). But I think both collectively and individually we are unwilling to make the required sacrifices. You're right, the actions of one person don't make a significant change, but they do make some change. If everyone who said they were deeply concerned about the environment started to make the changes that are required, we'd start to make a dent. And perhaps have a larger effect than themselves. But they won't. We're all mostly just hoping that massive change doesn't happen until after we die.
    - xboxnolifes 5y ago
      I think what a lot of people who say individual change is useless fail to realize is that individual change isn't about tipping the scale from their effort alone. An individual change may influence another individual (friend, loved one, someone on the internet, etc) to follow, and now you have 2 individuals. Keep repeating that and it may stop being an individual change.
- erikerikson 5y ago
  Actually, lots of people say "be the change" and I know quite a few who follow that suggestion. I have friends who eat vegan, eat more local foods, have cut down meat consumption, avoid travel (yes, before COVID), are reducing their plastic use to near zero, and so on. Few are taking all of that on but some are and there are many other ideas I've heard people taking on. We keep a garden alongside getting the rest of our vegetables from a local farmer who produces far into the winter via a CSA. We have started replacing some meat consumption with egg consumption from the chickens we keep. We do other things but we definitely have more opportunities. There have been some really nice shifts in perception as our reduced consumption has reduced our stresses and lifted our wealth trajectory. Consider: could you be hosting some social norms and exhibit some behaviors that keep you from interaction with such people? [edit: s/eat a vegan/eat vegan/]
  - BLKNSLVR 5y ago
    "eat a vegan" Hilariously opposite to the intended message. Sorry, I just found it very funny, have an upvote to make up for my shitpost reply. I believe in leading by example rather than leading by dictate. Others seeing what's actually possible is far more encouraging of change than pointy fingers and harsh words.
    - erikerikson 5y ago
      Indeed, thanks for noticing the hilarity! :D

CubsFan1060 5y ago

That's true. But that's everyone. I've yet to meet a single person who is willing to make the personal sacrifices needed to actually help the world. You get a bunch of normal people (i.e. 'peasants' if you wish) sitting around talking about how to save the environment while eating fruit grown in a faraway land and trucked to them in a refrigerated truck. Everyone wants to say the solution is that other people should change the way they do things, not themselves.

ARandumGuy 5y ago
You're absolutely right. I'll make a big personal sacrifice and close down my oil company. Everyone has to do their part, right? In seriousness, carbon emissions are overwhelmingly emitted from large corporations and state level actors (like the military). Which isn't to say that people shouldn't do what they can to reduce their own carbon footprint, but the world won't be saved if everyone buys local and starts biking to work.
- CubsFan1060 5y ago
  “I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do.” ― Edward Everett Hale Good quote. But, if everyone buys local and starts biking to work, why would the oil companies keep producing as much oil?
- Aunche 5y ago
  We don't have oil companies because shareholders like to pollute for fun. We have them to power refrigated trucks so that people can join enjoy seasonal grapes 365 days a year anywhere in the US. If an oil company gets shut down and people are unable to accept the quality of life decrease that comes with it, then they'll vote to open it back up again.
only_as_i_fall 5y ago
We just need to align incentives. If externalities were factored into the cost of imported fruits for example, it wouldn't even be a problem. As it stands do you even know what the relative carbon cost of growing or importing an apple vs a watermelon is in your area? Do you know how to tell if a fruit is grown locally or not while standing at the supermarket? Do you think the average person can reasonably be expected to make those judgements?
- CubsFan1060 5y ago
  Some things yes, some things no. I suspect many people realize there are no local producers for a lot of things (I don't think North Dakota has a lot of Coconut production), and seasonality is also important (not a lot of apples are grown in January in New York). But even when it's obvious, people still make choices. Including externalities would be an interesting path. I don't know what that would realistically look like though. Gas tax?
  - only_as_i_fall 5y ago
    I'm very much in favor of a carbon tax that aims to capture most of all sources of pollution. If you just tax gas you could get into a situation where it's more profitable but more wasteful for example to grow produce hydroponically because diesel is highly taxed but electricity generated by burning natural gas is not. Just the effect of making less green options more expensive would help, but of course this would be even better if the money collected from such a tax was used to invest in green infrastructure which could balance the original pollution.
SonicScrub 5y ago
That's the whole problem isn't? The actions of any individual, or even the actions of everyone in a small-to-medium sized nation are just too small on their own to mark significant change. Too many people aren't willing to accept this simple fact: the standard of living in the cushy societies of the Western middle class is completely and utterly unsustainable. And probably never will be. Avoiding environmental degradation is simply not possible without a major quality of life reduction.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- CubsFan1060 5y ago
  I agree with the last part. There is a huge amount of moral licensing as well (I recycled this cardboard box, so flying to Aruba is ok). But I think both collectively and individually we are unwilling to make the required sacrifices. You're right, the actions of one person don't make a significant change, but they do make some change. If everyone who said they were deeply concerned about the environment started to make the changes that are required, we'd start to make a dent. And perhaps have a larger effect than themselves. But they won't. We're all mostly just hoping that massive change doesn't happen until after we die.
  - xboxnolifes 5y ago
    I think what a lot of people who say individual change is useless fail to realize is that individual change isn't about tipping the scale from their effort alone. An individual change may influence another individual (friend, loved one, someone on the internet, etc) to follow, and now you have 2 individuals. Keep repeating that and it may stop being an individual change.
erikerikson 5y ago
Actually, lots of people say "be the change" and I know quite a few who follow that suggestion. I have friends who eat vegan, eat more local foods, have cut down meat consumption, avoid travel (yes, before COVID), are reducing their plastic use to near zero, and so on. Few are taking all of that on but some are and there are many other ideas I've heard people taking on. We keep a garden alongside getting the rest of our vegetables from a local farmer who produces far into the winter via a CSA. We have started replacing some meat consumption with egg consumption from the chickens we keep. We do other things but we definitely have more opportunities. There have been some really nice shifts in perception as our reduced consumption has reduced our stresses and lifted our wealth trajectory. Consider: could you be hosting some social norms and exhibit some behaviors that keep you from interaction with such people? [edit: s/eat a vegan/eat vegan/]
- BLKNSLVR 5y ago
  "eat a vegan" Hilariously opposite to the intended message. Sorry, I just found it very funny, have an upvote to make up for my shitpost reply. I believe in leading by example rather than leading by dictate. Others seeing what's actually possible is far more encouraging of change than pointy fingers and harsh words.
  - erikerikson 5y ago
    Indeed, thanks for noticing the hilarity! :D