6 ms·

To be pedantic, Apple does allow Progressive Web Apps which can bypass the App Store. (The Xbox cloud gaming app is a big one that goes down this path) Note th

by np- 5y ago

To be pedantic, Apple does allow Progressive Web Apps which can bypass the App Store. (The Xbox cloud gaming app is a big one that goes down this path) Note that I don’t support at all this decision to cooperate with an autocrat.

cageface 5y ago
To an extent they do but they've refused to implement a lot of important features in iOS safari that are needed for fully capable PWAs.
- maxwell 5y ago
  Which features? getUserMedia is now supported in WebViews, so one can build, for instance, a FaceTime competitor that runs on Chrome on iOS, where it wasn't possible a few months ago. But the Fullscreen API still isn't supported, a blow to the web-based FT competitor. What else?
  - meibo 5y ago
    Push notifications are impossible on iOS PWAs. Basically takes out a big chunk of possible apps you could build on this, no one wants e.g. a messenger that can't notify you when you get a message.
    - maxwell 5y ago
      That's a good one, here's the feature request: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182566 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182566
    - ghostwriter 5y ago
      > no one wants e.g. a messenger that can't notify you when you get a message. I deliberately disable push notifications in all messengers to avoids distractions, even though I'm actively using the messengers _when_ I want to sync with people.
      - TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
        It's great that works for you. Other users have other priorities.
        hvdijk 5y ago
        The claim was "no one wants x", the reply "I want x", your counter "others don't want x" as an attempt to dismiss the reply. That is unfair, the original claim that no one wants it was wrong and it was correct to point out that it was wrong.
        Guidii 5y ago
        The fundamental question is: would anyone choose to implement a messenger app as a PWA on a platform that doesn't support reliable notifications. "Nobody wants...." is probably best interpreted as "No developers want to build..."
        hvdijk 5y ago
        The idea of PWAs is that you make them once and they'll work on all platforms. The reality doesn't quite live up to that idea as this thread shows, but to me the idea to have single-platform PWAs still seems so odd that I would not interpret it that way. Still, if that was what was meant, then sure, I think I agree.
  - lerela 5y ago
    Not a feature per se, but being in the process of building a PWA for iOS with access to the camera, the fact that the authorization dialog pops up every time the app is opened (meaning that the permission is not saved even if the PWA has not been modified) looks like a deliberate attempt to make this technology not truly viable, because it really provides terrible UX.
    - modeless 5y ago
      Same with geolocation permission. A maps app that has to ask permission for your location every time is at a major disadvantage.
      - maxwell 5y ago
        Might be fixed in the iOS 15 beta. Also could be workaround, but looks complicated: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/39665367/how-to-prevent-wkwebview-to-repeatedly-ask-for-permission-to-access-location https://stackoverflow.com/questions/39665367/how-to-prevent-...
        modeless 5y ago
        That "workaround" is only available for store apps, not PWAs. Apple would love if every web developer had to submit to their app store just to add features like geolocation and camera and notifications. And that's exactly what happens today.
    - maxwell 5y ago
      Yeah, I've run into that too. Seems to affect most/all permissions, e.g. https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=213468 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=213468 Looks like persistent permissions might be in the iOS 15 beta though: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=228317 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=228317 Also appears that they're implementing the Permissions API: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=229504 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=229504 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=229590 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=229590
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - the-dude 5y ago
    Isn't Chrome on iOS, just like every other browser on iOS, just Safari?
    - mcdevilkiller 5y ago
      It is. It's just a skin.
    - maxwell 5y ago
      Well, they all use WebViews, as far as I know, but Safari has its own browser UI "chrome". https://developer.apple.com/documentation/webkit/webview https://developer.apple.com/documentation/webkit/webview Before iOS 14.3, getUserMedia didn't work in WebViews. See note 3: https://caniuse.com/stream https://caniuse.com/stream
- simondotau 5y ago
  Specifically, could you list features that would be relevant to a PWA that takes your electoral division as input and returns information on who to vote for? Honestly I'm confused that if a PWA is a viable solution, why this isn't just a website?
  - tailspin2019 5y ago
    > Honestly I'm confused that if a PWA is a viable solution, why this isn't just a website? PWA was touted in the comments as a possible alternative, but PWA on iOS is not a very viable alternative to a native app in my view. Just because a native app could be a PWA which in turn could be a website doesn't really say much about which of these it actually should be. Most apps I use on a daily basis could technically be websites, but that misses the point of why we like using platform-native apps in the first place. EDIT: It seems it is also a website. And that's blocked too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28562772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28562772
    - ghostwriter 5y ago
      > Just because a native app could be a PWA which in turn could be a website doesn't really say much about which of these it actually should be. It's worth mentioning that Navalny's team is funded via donations, and they could poll whether PWA is a viable option for communicating with their audience.
    - depressedpanda 5y ago
      > Just because a native app could be a PWA which in turn could be a website doesn't really say much about which of these it actually should be Conversely, just because something could be a native app, doesn't mean that it should be. I use as few native apps as possible, as I much prefer the stronger sandboxing provided by the browser. Why do you think that Twitter and Reddit nag you to install their shoddy native apps every time you visit their shoddy websites?
  - codedokode 5y ago
    Such PWA is easy to block because the government can block a website with it. A native app can use push notifications (which are encrypted) to receive data and the only way to block such an app would be to block access to Apple's servers completely.
pkilgore 5y ago
Apple's "PWA" support is about as good as Microsoft Office's Apple support in the 90s. I strongly suspect for the same anticompetitive reasons.
- tailspin2019 5y ago
  Yes it's 100% down to wanting to protect the sanctity of the App Store ecosystem - which I do kind of understand, but don't necessarily condone.
keewee7 5y ago
>To be pedantic, Apple does allow Progressive Web Apps which can bypass the App Store. Apple is the company that is actively sabotaging PWAs.
- judge2020 5y ago
  They work just fine on iOS. Stadia does PWA as well.
  - depressedpanda 5y ago
    No they don't work fine. The option to install a PWA as an app is quite hidden, compared to Chrome. They refuse to implement push notifications. In general, Safari is dragging their feet in supporting any web standards that would allow PWAs to compete with apps installed from the App store, while at the same time being the only browser allowed on iOS.
    - creaturemachine 5y ago
      The irony is so thick. Remember iPhone 1.0 was meant to use web apps exclusively.
tailspin2019 5y ago
> Apple does allow Progressive Web Apps In my view the PWA route is pretty crippled on iOS compared to what's available on Android - so its usefulness as an alternative is extremely limited.
Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
unfortunately, the website from which such PWA might be loaded is also blocked in Russia.
codedokode 5y ago
As I understand, PWAs are easy to block - you just need to block access to a web server. And native apps have more possibilities to evade blocking: they can use non-standard protocols, P2P protocols, receive data via pushes. So to block a native app one would have to block access to App Store.
tailspin2019 5y ago
Not sure why you're being downvoted so heavily. Nothing you said was wrong. As per my other comment, I don't tend to agree that PWA is a decent alternative but that's a different point altogether. PWAs do exist on iOS, as you correctly point out.
defaultname 5y ago
PWAs are a market failure [1], and the deployment/utilization of them approximates 0%, including on Android where, the many comments tell us, it's a high power panacea. [1] - Though it is astonishing how well the cloud gaming options work as PWAs. The one place where they've made any headway.

by np- 5y ago

cageface 5y ago

To an extent they do but they've refused to implement a lot of important features in iOS safari that are needed for fully capable PWAs.

maxwell 5y ago
Which features? getUserMedia is now supported in WebViews, so one can build, for instance, a FaceTime competitor that runs on Chrome on iOS, where it wasn't possible a few months ago. But the Fullscreen API still isn't supported, a blow to the web-based FT competitor. What else?
- meibo 5y ago
  Push notifications are impossible on iOS PWAs. Basically takes out a big chunk of possible apps you could build on this, no one wants e.g. a messenger that can't notify you when you get a message.
  - maxwell 5y ago
    That's a good one, here's the feature request: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182566 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182566
  - ghostwriter 5y ago
    > no one wants e.g. a messenger that can't notify you when you get a message. I deliberately disable push notifications in all messengers to avoids distractions, even though I'm actively using the messengers _when_ I want to sync with people.
    - TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
      It's great that works for you. Other users have other priorities.
      - hvdijk 5y ago
        The claim was "no one wants x", the reply "I want x", your counter "others don't want x" as an attempt to dismiss the reply. That is unfair, the original claim that no one wants it was wrong and it was correct to point out that it was wrong.
        Guidii 5y ago
        The fundamental question is: would anyone choose to implement a messenger app as a PWA on a platform that doesn't support reliable notifications. "Nobody wants...." is probably best interpreted as "No developers want to build..."
        hvdijk 5y ago
        The idea of PWAs is that you make them once and they'll work on all platforms. The reality doesn't quite live up to that idea as this thread shows, but to me the idea to have single-platform PWAs still seems so odd that I would not interpret it that way. Still, if that was what was meant, then sure, I think I agree.
- lerela 5y ago
  Not a feature per se, but being in the process of building a PWA for iOS with access to the camera, the fact that the authorization dialog pops up every time the app is opened (meaning that the permission is not saved even if the PWA has not been modified) looks like a deliberate attempt to make this technology not truly viable, because it really provides terrible UX.
  - modeless 5y ago
    Same with geolocation permission. A maps app that has to ask permission for your location every time is at a major disadvantage.
    - maxwell 5y ago
      Might be fixed in the iOS 15 beta. Also could be workaround, but looks complicated: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/39665367/how-to-prevent-wkwebview-to-repeatedly-ask-for-permission-to-access-location https://stackoverflow.com/questions/39665367/how-to-prevent-...
      - modeless 5y ago
        That "workaround" is only available for store apps, not PWAs. Apple would love if every web developer had to submit to their app store just to add features like geolocation and camera and notifications. And that's exactly what happens today.
  - maxwell 5y ago
    Yeah, I've run into that too. Seems to affect most/all permissions, e.g. https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=213468 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=213468 Looks like persistent permissions might be in the iOS 15 beta though: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=228317 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=228317 Also appears that they're implementing the Permissions API: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=229504 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=229504 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=229590 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=229590
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- the-dude 5y ago
  Isn't Chrome on iOS, just like every other browser on iOS, just Safari?
  - mcdevilkiller 5y ago
    It is. It's just a skin.
  - maxwell 5y ago
    Well, they all use WebViews, as far as I know, but Safari has its own browser UI "chrome". https://developer.apple.com/documentation/webkit/webview https://developer.apple.com/documentation/webkit/webview Before iOS 14.3, getUserMedia didn't work in WebViews. See note 3: https://caniuse.com/stream https://caniuse.com/stream
simondotau 5y ago
Specifically, could you list features that would be relevant to a PWA that takes your electoral division as input and returns information on who to vote for? Honestly I'm confused that if a PWA is a viable solution, why this isn't just a website?
- tailspin2019 5y ago
  > Honestly I'm confused that if a PWA is a viable solution, why this isn't just a website? PWA was touted in the comments as a possible alternative, but PWA on iOS is not a very viable alternative to a native app in my view. Just because a native app could be a PWA which in turn could be a website doesn't really say much about which of these it actually should be. Most apps I use on a daily basis could technically be websites, but that misses the point of why we like using platform-native apps in the first place. EDIT: It seems it is also a website. And that's blocked too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28562772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28562772
  - ghostwriter 5y ago
    > Just because a native app could be a PWA which in turn could be a website doesn't really say much about which of these it actually should be. It's worth mentioning that Navalny's team is funded via donations, and they could poll whether PWA is a viable option for communicating with their audience.
  - depressedpanda 5y ago
    > Just because a native app could be a PWA which in turn could be a website doesn't really say much about which of these it actually should be Conversely, just because something could be a native app, doesn't mean that it should be. I use as few native apps as possible, as I much prefer the stronger sandboxing provided by the browser. Why do you think that Twitter and Reddit nag you to install their shoddy native apps every time you visit their shoddy websites?
- codedokode 5y ago
  Such PWA is easy to block because the government can block a website with it. A native app can use push notifications (which are encrypted) to receive data and the only way to block such an app would be to block access to Apple's servers completely.

pkilgore 5y ago

Apple's "PWA" support is about as good as Microsoft Office's Apple support in the 90s. I strongly suspect for the same anticompetitive reasons.

tailspin2019 5y ago
Yes it's 100% down to wanting to protect the sanctity of the App Store ecosystem - which I do kind of understand, but don't necessarily condone.

keewee7 5y ago

>To be pedantic, Apple does allow Progressive Web Apps which can bypass the App Store. Apple is the company that is actively sabotaging PWAs.

judge2020 5y ago
They work just fine on iOS. Stadia does PWA as well.
- depressedpanda 5y ago
  No they don't work fine. The option to install a PWA as an app is quite hidden, compared to Chrome. They refuse to implement push notifications. In general, Safari is dragging their feet in supporting any web standards that would allow PWAs to compete with apps installed from the App store, while at the same time being the only browser allowed on iOS.
  - creaturemachine 5y ago
    The irony is so thick. Remember iPhone 1.0 was meant to use web apps exclusively.

tailspin2019 5y ago

> Apple does allow Progressive Web Apps In my view the PWA route is pretty crippled on iOS compared to what's available on Android - so its usefulness as an alternative is extremely limited.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago

unfortunately, the website from which such PWA might be loaded is also blocked in Russia.

codedokode 5y ago

As I understand, PWAs are easy to block - you just need to block access to a web server. And native apps have more possibilities to evade blocking: they can use non-standard protocols, P2P protocols, receive data via pushes. So to block a native app one would have to block access to App Store.

tailspin2019 5y ago

Not sure why you're being downvoted so heavily. Nothing you said was wrong. As per my other comment, I don't tend to agree that PWA is a decent alternative but that's a different point altogether. PWAs do exist on iOS, as you correctly point out.

defaultname 5y ago

PWAs are a market failure [1], and the deployment/utilization of them approximates 0%, including on Android where, the many comments tell us, it's a high power panacea. [1] - Though it is astonishing how well the cloud gaming options work as PWAs. The one place where they've made any headway.