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> Pull out of the countries then. Then why Apple hasn't pulled out of China? Like 2 decades ago? China was always a brutal dictatorship. Why would they pull ou

> Pull out of the countries then. Then why Apple hasn't pulled out of China? Like 2 decades ago? China was always a brutal dictatorship. Why would they pull out of anything? These company profit from bloody dictatorships, like the rest of the western economy. But somehow when it's about Russia it's a problem? The hypocrisy in the west must stop. The west and it's industry never stood for freedom abroad since it decided that business is more important than democracy in the rest of the world, basically when the west accepted China in the WTO. > Participating in dictatorship is barely better than refusing to do so if that dictatorship will falsely imprison your employees. Tell that to Apple in China, a country that is literally using slave workforce from concentration camps. But Russia is where people here start being outraged?

hnlmorg 5y ago
In fairness, people have been asking Apple and Google (plus many other western businesses) to pull out of China for a long time. The point your making isn't something new nor overlooked.
- gman83 5y ago
  But Google did pull out of China, did that improve the situation in China? Meanwhile Apple makes billions in China and barely anyone says anything. If you're Google you're looking at that like a raw deal.
  - hnlmorg 5y ago
    Google didn't entirely pull out of China, they just terminated their product lines that were unsuccessful in China. I was also just posting a fact that people have made the same calls for China, not my personal opinion about whether we "should" discontinue services with China. On that last point, I'm honestly undecided.
    - jsnell 5y ago
      That's just an outright lie. The product they pulled was search. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China it had a 36% search market share.
      - hnlmorg 5y ago
        > That's just an outright lie. Your citation literally contradicts your rebuttal! > By November 2013, Google's search market share in China had declined to 1.7% from its August 2009 level of 36.2% ^ that's literally in the Wiki article you posted! So I have no idea why you're assuming I'm lying (which is an accusation that I'm intending to deceive you ffs) nor even why you think that link backs up your claim when it literally states the same thing I had (their Search product sucked (due to censorship) so they redirected to HK and focused on other products).
        Kinrany 5y ago
        Google pulled out in 2010, of course their market share declined.
        hnlmorg 5y ago
        They did still redirect people to the Hong Kong search though. They didn't entirely pull out from China, just discontinued the Chinese search engine. And they did that because Google.cn was largely a broken service with a significant number of results being blocked by the Great Firewall. That wiki literally states all of this! Google Search was never really what one would normally describe as a "successful product" in China even when it was at it's hight in terms of market share. It sucked and given Google still operate in China, have development offices there and actively promote Android (amongst other services), it's a real stretch to say that Google discontinued Search in China over ethical reasons. Search was just, like many of their services in the west that get canned, just not proving successful enough to be worth the hassle supporting. Which was my original point. edit: Christ on a bike. I'm getting downvoted when even the citations backs up my statement. Googlers must have logged on for their morning dose of internet outrage.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Yes Google pulling out instead of censoring search results and spying on users for the government made things better for people in China. Apple scan your photos. Tells you what apps you are allowed to install and charges you extra for all of that. Whatever type of person is left on the platform is more likely to be going through stockholm syndrome and wouldn't be in a situation to make a political statement.
    - leesalminen 5y ago
      Every cloud service that holds your photos in a non-e2ee way (read: Google, FB, et. Al.) scans your photos. They’re all afraid of the .gov accusing them of holding illegal content.
      - iakov 5y ago
        This again. None of them do that on my device, that I paid with my money. No cloud service wastes my CPU cycles and batteries to report me to authorities. It's apples to oranges, sorry for the pun. Please stop comparing what Google, MS and Dropbox do to what Apple planned to do.
        leesalminen 5y ago
        I can relate to that, for sure. I also dislike the idea of having my personal property used to spy on me. The battery impact, the potentially degraded performance, and the overall creep factor. I dislike it all. However, that was not what the parent stated. They said "Apple scan your photos.", to which I replied everyone else does as well. Because they do.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      > Yes Google pulling out instead of censoring search results and spying on users for the government made things better for people in China. Did it? In what way? Does Google not censor results in the United States at the behest of the US government? Does it not spy on users at the best of the US govt?
  - jpxw 5y ago
    It’s not about whether it improves the situation in China or not. It’s about having consistent principles as a company.
  - sam_goody 5y ago
    Actually, no. Page and Brinn started Google with the intention to improve the world. They weren't short of money, so not being part of what China was doing was productive, even if it did not make cash. I know plenty of people that are driven by things other than money, and its not a raw deal at all. Of course, after that, Google went Evil Incarnate so now there is no logic for them to be out of China.
modo_mario 5y ago
>The west and it's industry never stood for freedom abroad since it decided that business is more important than democracy in the rest of the world, basically when the west accepted China in the WTO. I'd say it was long long before that. The US replaced a democratically elected leader with a dictatorship at the behest of a fruit company to give one example and it has had plenty such business influenced examples preceding and following it. >Tell that to Apple in China It ain't quite done to separatists but is it surprising? It's ok even when a lot less money is involved and it happens locally.: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28286853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28286853
- 2xpress 5y ago
  Good point, good point. The recent NordStream deal was disgusting. Unfortunately Western morals are only marginally better than those of the tyrants that Western politicians sell out to. I suppose whoever cares enough for Western morals to improve needs to try to sell out a little less themselves.
nnnnnande 5y ago
> But Russia is where people here start being outraged? It's entirely possible that the same people are _also_ outraged by Apple's business in China.
- VSerge 5y ago
  Indeed, it's the exact same issue, and the behavior of these companies is as cynical and wrong in Russia, China, and any and all other places where they act this way.
- Diesel555 5y ago
  I agree. And if they weren't, I get tired of arguments on the merits of argument "B" that states because "A" is wrong, you cannot point out that "B" is wrong too. The danger is the mentality that we should not solve any single problem unless we can solve all of the problems. Pointing out the hypocrisy to invalidate the argument can lead to inaction.
simonh 5y ago
I posted a sibling comment to your about Russia and the general point. I'll try not to repeat myself but China is very close to my heart as my wife is Chinese and therefore so is half of my family. My wife's father's family were brutally oppressed by the Communists. To this day he gets upset, and I've seen him burst into tears when talking about what they did to some of his relatives in the 50s and 60s. This is the toughest guy I've ever known. None of my Chinese relatives, no matter how deeply they oppose the government, thinks Apple should not sell them iPhones because of anything the CCP does. When Apple pulled VPN apps in China they blamed the CCP, not Apple. None of them think refusing to trade with china is in Chinese citizens best interests. This is why I think I can gauge how Russians probably think about this though I have no experience of Russia.
- throw_m239339 5y ago
  > None of them think refusing to trade with china is in Chinese citizens best interests. Well, then is it a matter of principle for western democracies or not? Meanwhile, the west is financing the CCP.
  - simonh 5y ago
    There are definitely principles at stake. We should not work with or support oppressive activities themselves. Western countries selling gear to be used in the great firewall is a disgrace. Selling software tools to be used in censorship is also despicable. We should check supply chains to exclude forced labour to the best of our ability.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - toiletfuneral 5y ago
    Principle? Dude have ever read anything about Kissinger or dulles? And do you think institutional investors are as nationalist as you?
- lostmsu 5y ago
tbihl 5y ago
>Tell that to Apple in China, a country that is literally using slave workforce from concentration camps. Source?
- tailspin2019 5y ago
  Doesn't seem to take much Googling to find some reputable looking sources... > China uses Uyghur forced labour to make solar panels, says report https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-57124636 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-57124636 > There’s a good chance your cotton T-shirt was made with Uyghur slave labor... Much of the world’s cotton comes from the Uyghur region, where the Chinese government is ethnically cleansing its Muslim minority. Fashion conglomerates know this https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/09/cotton-slave-labor-uyghur-region-china https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/09/cotton... > Despite having initially denied the existence of camps, authorities later described them as “vocational training” centres. Nevertheless, satellite imagery indicated that an increasing number of camps continued to be built throughout the year. https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/asia-and-the-pacific/east-asia/china/report-china/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/asia-and-the-pacific/eas... EDIT: I was confused by the downvotes given that the above aren't exactly fringe outlets. I imagine people may be conflating the mention of "Apple" and "slave labour" in the parent comment. I'm not supporting the idea that Apple are using slave labour in China - I have no idea on that front. (And if you reread the parent it's not necessarily what they were suggesting either.) The sources above merely seem to show that there are reports in general of forced labour and forced detention in China. That said... this was the result of quick first-page Googling and I'm admittedly pretty ignorant on this topic.
- racnid 5y ago
  https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-media-release/department-homeland-security-issues-withhold-release-order-silica https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-media-release/departme...
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    > Federal statute 19 U.S.C. 1307 prohibits the importation of merchandise produced, wholly or in part, by convict labor, forced labor, and/or indentured labor under penal sanctions, including forced or indentured child labor I'm confused how this is distinguished from the conditions of domestic textile workers in the US?
pkilgore 5y ago
I know you are the pro-Russia person, but the pro-China people say the same things when folks like me consistently criticize large companies and celebrities for the same reason. Please assume good faith here.

hnlmorg 5y ago

In fairness, people have been asking Apple and Google (plus many other western businesses) to pull out of China for a long time. The point your making isn't something new nor overlooked.

gman83 5y ago
But Google did pull out of China, did that improve the situation in China? Meanwhile Apple makes billions in China and barely anyone says anything. If you're Google you're looking at that like a raw deal.
- hnlmorg 5y ago
  Google didn't entirely pull out of China, they just terminated their product lines that were unsuccessful in China. I was also just posting a fact that people have made the same calls for China, not my personal opinion about whether we "should" discontinue services with China. On that last point, I'm honestly undecided.
  - jsnell 5y ago
    That's just an outright lie. The product they pulled was search. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China it had a 36% search market share.
    - hnlmorg 5y ago
      > That's just an outright lie. Your citation literally contradicts your rebuttal! > By November 2013, Google's search market share in China had declined to 1.7% from its August 2009 level of 36.2% ^ that's literally in the Wiki article you posted! So I have no idea why you're assuming I'm lying (which is an accusation that I'm intending to deceive you ffs) nor even why you think that link backs up your claim when it literally states the same thing I had (their Search product sucked (due to censorship) so they redirected to HK and focused on other products).
      - Kinrany 5y ago
        Google pulled out in 2010, of course their market share declined.
        hnlmorg 5y ago
        They did still redirect people to the Hong Kong search though. They didn't entirely pull out from China, just discontinued the Chinese search engine. And they did that because Google.cn was largely a broken service with a significant number of results being blocked by the Great Firewall. That wiki literally states all of this! Google Search was never really what one would normally describe as a "successful product" in China even when it was at it's hight in terms of market share. It sucked and given Google still operate in China, have development offices there and actively promote Android (amongst other services), it's a real stretch to say that Google discontinued Search in China over ethical reasons. Search was just, like many of their services in the west that get canned, just not proving successful enough to be worth the hassle supporting. Which was my original point. edit: Christ on a bike. I'm getting downvoted when even the citations backs up my statement. Googlers must have logged on for their morning dose of internet outrage.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Yes Google pulling out instead of censoring search results and spying on users for the government made things better for people in China. Apple scan your photos. Tells you what apps you are allowed to install and charges you extra for all of that. Whatever type of person is left on the platform is more likely to be going through stockholm syndrome and wouldn't be in a situation to make a political statement.
  - leesalminen 5y ago
    Every cloud service that holds your photos in a non-e2ee way (read: Google, FB, et. Al.) scans your photos. They’re all afraid of the .gov accusing them of holding illegal content.
    - iakov 5y ago
      This again. None of them do that on my device, that I paid with my money. No cloud service wastes my CPU cycles and batteries to report me to authorities. It's apples to oranges, sorry for the pun. Please stop comparing what Google, MS and Dropbox do to what Apple planned to do.
      - leesalminen 5y ago
        I can relate to that, for sure. I also dislike the idea of having my personal property used to spy on me. The battery impact, the potentially degraded performance, and the overall creep factor. I dislike it all. However, that was not what the parent stated. They said "Apple scan your photos.", to which I replied everyone else does as well. Because they do.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    > Yes Google pulling out instead of censoring search results and spying on users for the government made things better for people in China. Did it? In what way? Does Google not censor results in the United States at the behest of the US government? Does it not spy on users at the best of the US govt?
- jpxw 5y ago
  It’s not about whether it improves the situation in China or not. It’s about having consistent principles as a company.
- sam_goody 5y ago
  Actually, no. Page and Brinn started Google with the intention to improve the world. They weren't short of money, so not being part of what China was doing was productive, even if it did not make cash. I know plenty of people that are driven by things other than money, and its not a raw deal at all. Of course, after that, Google went Evil Incarnate so now there is no logic for them to be out of China.

modo_mario 5y ago

>The west and it's industry never stood for freedom abroad since it decided that business is more important than democracy in the rest of the world, basically when the west accepted China in the WTO. I'd say it was long long before that. The US replaced a democratically elected leader with a dictatorship at the behest of a fruit company to give one example and it has had plenty such business influenced examples preceding and following it. >Tell that to Apple in China It ain't quite done to separatists but is it surprising? It's ok even when a lot less money is involved and it happens locally.: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28286853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28286853

2xpress 5y ago
Good point, good point. The recent NordStream deal was disgusting. Unfortunately Western morals are only marginally better than those of the tyrants that Western politicians sell out to. I suppose whoever cares enough for Western morals to improve needs to try to sell out a little less themselves.

nnnnnande 5y ago

> But Russia is where people here start being outraged? It's entirely possible that the same people are _also_ outraged by Apple's business in China.

VSerge 5y ago
Indeed, it's the exact same issue, and the behavior of these companies is as cynical and wrong in Russia, China, and any and all other places where they act this way.
Diesel555 5y ago
I agree. And if they weren't, I get tired of arguments on the merits of argument "B" that states because "A" is wrong, you cannot point out that "B" is wrong too. The danger is the mentality that we should not solve any single problem unless we can solve all of the problems. Pointing out the hypocrisy to invalidate the argument can lead to inaction.

simonh 5y ago

I posted a sibling comment to your about Russia and the general point. I'll try not to repeat myself but China is very close to my heart as my wife is Chinese and therefore so is half of my family. My wife's father's family were brutally oppressed by the Communists. To this day he gets upset, and I've seen him burst into tears when talking about what they did to some of his relatives in the 50s and 60s. This is the toughest guy I've ever known. None of my Chinese relatives, no matter how deeply they oppose the government, thinks Apple should not sell them iPhones because of anything the CCP does. When Apple pulled VPN apps in China they blamed the CCP, not Apple. None of them think refusing to trade with china is in Chinese citizens best interests. This is why I think I can gauge how Russians probably think about this though I have no experience of Russia.

throw_m239339 5y ago
> None of them think refusing to trade with china is in Chinese citizens best interests. Well, then is it a matter of principle for western democracies or not? Meanwhile, the west is financing the CCP.
- simonh 5y ago
  There are definitely principles at stake. We should not work with or support oppressive activities themselves. Western countries selling gear to be used in the great firewall is a disgrace. Selling software tools to be used in censorship is also despicable. We should check supply chains to exclude forced labour to the best of our ability.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- toiletfuneral 5y ago
  Principle? Dude have ever read anything about Kissinger or dulles? And do you think institutional investors are as nationalist as you?
lostmsu 5y ago

tbihl 5y ago

>Tell that to Apple in China, a country that is literally using slave workforce from concentration camps. Source?

tailspin2019 5y ago
Doesn't seem to take much Googling to find some reputable looking sources... > China uses Uyghur forced labour to make solar panels, says report https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-57124636 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-57124636 > There’s a good chance your cotton T-shirt was made with Uyghur slave labor... Much of the world’s cotton comes from the Uyghur region, where the Chinese government is ethnically cleansing its Muslim minority. Fashion conglomerates know this https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/09/cotton-slave-labor-uyghur-region-china https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/09/cotton... > Despite having initially denied the existence of camps, authorities later described them as “vocational training” centres. Nevertheless, satellite imagery indicated that an increasing number of camps continued to be built throughout the year. https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/asia-and-the-pacific/east-asia/china/report-china/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/asia-and-the-pacific/eas... EDIT: I was confused by the downvotes given that the above aren't exactly fringe outlets. I imagine people may be conflating the mention of "Apple" and "slave labour" in the parent comment. I'm not supporting the idea that Apple are using slave labour in China - I have no idea on that front. (And if you reread the parent it's not necessarily what they were suggesting either.) The sources above merely seem to show that there are reports in general of forced labour and forced detention in China. That said... this was the result of quick first-page Googling and I'm admittedly pretty ignorant on this topic.
racnid 5y ago
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-media-release/department-homeland-security-issues-withhold-release-order-silica https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-media-release/departme...
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  > Federal statute 19 U.S.C. 1307 prohibits the importation of merchandise produced, wholly or in part, by convict labor, forced labor, and/or indentured labor under penal sanctions, including forced or indentured child labor I'm confused how this is distinguished from the conditions of domestic textile workers in the US?

pkilgore 5y ago

I know you are the pro-Russia person, but the pro-China people say the same things when folks like me consistently criticize large companies and celebrities for the same reason. Please assume good faith here.