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I'm no fan of political power in Russia (my home country) or anywhere else in the world, but come on with this double-standard bullshit. Every country does exa

I'm no fan of political power in Russia (my home country) or anywhere else in the world, but come on with this double-standard bullshit. Every country does exactly the same thing. Just look at how much suppression of "alternative voices" happens in real time all over the world and what apps were banned, accounts closed etc. Jan 6 was painted as bad as 9/11, ffs. It may be staged differently so it's not the "government" directly steps onto your 1st amendment, but "private biz", but who are we kidding. When there are forbidden topics and forbidden people, it's the outcomes that matter, not specific mechanisms. Google and Apple are collaborating with all governments, and all governments are abusing their powers in someone's own interests, so calling for "pulling out" of a "misbehaving country" makes as much sense as asking for rain to drop upwards. I'd better explore how people could reduce their dependence on any giant corporation, regardless of it being a business or a government, from West or East.

hnlmorg 5y ago
> Every country does exactly the same thing. They don't though. Sure, there is some level of corruption and media bias in every country but few countries have dictatorships which will threaten imprisonment (or worse) of anyone who speaks out against the current government. However I do agree with your secondary point that the solution isn't to create a tech vacuum, it's to create technology that can't be controlled by a single authority.
- Dah00n 5y ago
  Now you are moving the discussion into Which country have actual free people though. Sure a dictatorship is worse than a "free" country where decades of propaganda has set the tone so people think they are free while they do what the government wants them to but are they really that much better off? That people chant USA! USA! USA! while doing something doesn't mean they are free. They are more free but way more indoctrinated. I'm not sure that is better than how it is in Russia. It does feel better, sure, but it doesn't give any less media bias at all. If anything US media is more biased than Russian or at least as bad - all done without obvious threats. That's worse in my opinion, way worse.
  - hnlmorg 5y ago
    > Now you are moving the discussion into Which country have actual free people though. I'm not moving the topic, that is an integral part of the existing discussion: Apple and Google employees were threatened with imprisonment if they didn't remove the app. > but are they really that much better off? Now who's moving the discussion away from topic? It certainly isn't me lol I'll entertain your question though: some will be better off, some will be worse off, and some will not be affected at all. When you deal with any large dataset, such as the entire population of a country, there will always be individual samples which demonstrate the benefits of most outcomes. HOWEVER I do not believe the instances of those who are better off under a dictatorship equal out the atrocities that dictators use to retain their control. And that is the real crux of the problem. > That people chant USA! USA! USA! while doing something doesn't mean they are free. I'm not American and don't have a particularly high opinion of American politics either but it's still better than a dictatorship. I also suspect you're now drifting into a philosophical argument about what it means to be "free". > It does feel better, sure, but it doesn't give any less media bias at all. Finally you're back on topic! As I stated in my previous post, every country will have bias in the media. That's unavoidable. However what is important is that the media have freedom to choose their political biases. In "free" countries you'd typically get new outlets which will favour the current government but also outlets that will be highly critical of the government. And that is the difference between Russia and most of the rest of the world. It might seem like a really small point if you're used to Russian (or any other state-controlled) media but I promise you that it really is a significant difference! > If anything US media is more biased than Russian or at least as bad No, it really is not. You have platforms that can offer opposing arguments and full press freedom to use them. America even has rules stating that one should have the freedom to speak out against the government (and this was upheld in court when Trump tried to block people he didn't like on Twitter). Compare that with most dictatorships where vocal opponents often end up exiled (or worse!) and you'll see my point that you cannot argue the two to be equivalent.
- nzmsv 5y ago
  So in the US there was a big kerfuffle about how Russia paid for some Facebook ads and interfered with the election. Russia bad. Here you have an app that literally tells people how to vote. This is pro-US, so again, Russia bad.
  - tremon 5y ago
    This is a Russian app, overtly tied to a Russian political figure, explaining to Russian citizens how to act in their Russian election. You don't see any difference with Russia using fake US accounts to tell US citizens how to act in the US election?
    - sannysanoff 5y ago
      > Donald J. Trump and 18 of his associates had at least 140 contacts with Russian nationals and WikiLeaks, or their intermediaries, during the 2016 campaign and presidential transition. Sorry, wrong person, 1 sec... Navalny: 1) Studied in Yale 2) Supported by all western media as a hero at any time 3) Received large amounts in Bitcoin 4) Maria Pevchikh (MI6) etc. Looks like very Rissian polititian, and very pro-russian activity.
    - nzmsv 5y ago
      By the same argument: Facebook is a US company, so Russia is innocent. Just because someone uses a front to hide behind does not mean they are not behind the activity.
- bronzeage 5y ago
  The U.S doesn't just threaten, they imprison innocent protesters and even grandmas from Jan 6 peaceful protests, while vandals from BLM protests which caused real damage to businesses walk free. From the outside, U.S looks just as bad if not worse than Russia right now. Your media and democratic party is getting on par with authoritarian regimes and I'd argue its even worse because naive uninformed people still think they live in a free democracy.
- sannysanoff 5y ago
  > few countries have dictatorships Ok, the US outsourced the dictatorship & punishment procedure to twitter, google, apple (e.g. see the ban of Trump and his supporters), ban of alternative media by Visa&co, etc etc. Soft humanitarian dictatorship ;) > will threaten imprisonment (or worse) of anyone who speaks out against the current government ok, they just arrested Capitolium protesters and charged 600+ people. > https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1 https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-ar... Ah, US calls it 'crime'.. so trivial..
mycoborea 5y ago
Agreed. Navalny’s behavior is seen by many as “election meddling” backed by a hostile foreign power. Sound familiar?
- nkozyra 5y ago
  The central point of this in 2016 was an actual crime being committed at the behest or reward of an American campaign. So it sounds familiar if you squint and stand a hundred yards back.

hnlmorg 5y ago

> Every country does exactly the same thing. They don't though. Sure, there is some level of corruption and media bias in every country but few countries have dictatorships which will threaten imprisonment (or worse) of anyone who speaks out against the current government. However I do agree with your secondary point that the solution isn't to create a tech vacuum, it's to create technology that can't be controlled by a single authority.

Dah00n 5y ago
Now you are moving the discussion into Which country have actual free people though. Sure a dictatorship is worse than a "free" country where decades of propaganda has set the tone so people think they are free while they do what the government wants them to but are they really that much better off? That people chant USA! USA! USA! while doing something doesn't mean they are free. They are more free but way more indoctrinated. I'm not sure that is better than how it is in Russia. It does feel better, sure, but it doesn't give any less media bias at all. If anything US media is more biased than Russian or at least as bad - all done without obvious threats. That's worse in my opinion, way worse.
- hnlmorg 5y ago
  > Now you are moving the discussion into Which country have actual free people though. I'm not moving the topic, that is an integral part of the existing discussion: Apple and Google employees were threatened with imprisonment if they didn't remove the app. > but are they really that much better off? Now who's moving the discussion away from topic? It certainly isn't me lol I'll entertain your question though: some will be better off, some will be worse off, and some will not be affected at all. When you deal with any large dataset, such as the entire population of a country, there will always be individual samples which demonstrate the benefits of most outcomes. HOWEVER I do not believe the instances of those who are better off under a dictatorship equal out the atrocities that dictators use to retain their control. And that is the real crux of the problem. > That people chant USA! USA! USA! while doing something doesn't mean they are free. I'm not American and don't have a particularly high opinion of American politics either but it's still better than a dictatorship. I also suspect you're now drifting into a philosophical argument about what it means to be "free". > It does feel better, sure, but it doesn't give any less media bias at all. Finally you're back on topic! As I stated in my previous post, every country will have bias in the media. That's unavoidable. However what is important is that the media have freedom to choose their political biases. In "free" countries you'd typically get new outlets which will favour the current government but also outlets that will be highly critical of the government. And that is the difference between Russia and most of the rest of the world. It might seem like a really small point if you're used to Russian (or any other state-controlled) media but I promise you that it really is a significant difference! > If anything US media is more biased than Russian or at least as bad No, it really is not. You have platforms that can offer opposing arguments and full press freedom to use them. America even has rules stating that one should have the freedom to speak out against the government (and this was upheld in court when Trump tried to block people he didn't like on Twitter). Compare that with most dictatorships where vocal opponents often end up exiled (or worse!) and you'll see my point that you cannot argue the two to be equivalent.
nzmsv 5y ago
So in the US there was a big kerfuffle about how Russia paid for some Facebook ads and interfered with the election. Russia bad. Here you have an app that literally tells people how to vote. This is pro-US, so again, Russia bad.
- tremon 5y ago
  This is a Russian app, overtly tied to a Russian political figure, explaining to Russian citizens how to act in their Russian election. You don't see any difference with Russia using fake US accounts to tell US citizens how to act in the US election?
  - sannysanoff 5y ago
    > Donald J. Trump and 18 of his associates had at least 140 contacts with Russian nationals and WikiLeaks, or their intermediaries, during the 2016 campaign and presidential transition. Sorry, wrong person, 1 sec... Navalny: 1) Studied in Yale 2) Supported by all western media as a hero at any time 3) Received large amounts in Bitcoin 4) Maria Pevchikh (MI6) etc. Looks like very Rissian polititian, and very pro-russian activity.
  - nzmsv 5y ago
    By the same argument: Facebook is a US company, so Russia is innocent. Just because someone uses a front to hide behind does not mean they are not behind the activity.
bronzeage 5y ago
The U.S doesn't just threaten, they imprison innocent protesters and even grandmas from Jan 6 peaceful protests, while vandals from BLM protests which caused real damage to businesses walk free. From the outside, U.S looks just as bad if not worse than Russia right now. Your media and democratic party is getting on par with authoritarian regimes and I'd argue its even worse because naive uninformed people still think they live in a free democracy.
sannysanoff 5y ago
> few countries have dictatorships Ok, the US outsourced the dictatorship & punishment procedure to twitter, google, apple (e.g. see the ban of Trump and his supporters), ban of alternative media by Visa&co, etc etc. Soft humanitarian dictatorship ;) > will threaten imprisonment (or worse) of anyone who speaks out against the current government ok, they just arrested Capitolium protesters and charged 600+ people. > https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1 https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-ar... Ah, US calls it 'crime'.. so trivial..

mycoborea 5y ago

Agreed. Navalny’s behavior is seen by many as “election meddling” backed by a hostile foreign power. Sound familiar?

nkozyra 5y ago
The central point of this in 2016 was an actual crime being committed at the behest or reward of an American campaign. So it sounds familiar if you squint and stand a hundred yards back.