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As a student I used to obsess over university rankings, but I realize now that most of them are massively gamed. My alma mater, the UPMC (Université Pierre et M

As a student I used to obsess over university rankings, but I realize now that most of them are massively gamed. My alma mater, the UPMC (Université Pierre et Marie Curie) e.g. merged with other universities in Paris to form the Sorbonne University, mostly to move up in the worldwide ranking. So, it's still largely the same university with the same funding and the same chairs, but since it's bundled up in a larger package it now gets some extra vanity points. IMHO, as a PhD student, what really matters is not how well your university is ranked but how well your research group is organized and how much the people there support you. I know students who went to do their PhDs in the groups of nobel prize winners because of the associated fame, only to find out that they're not very "hungry" anymore (in the sense that they're already at the top of their fame and not always eager to pursue new risky and innovative research) and are often so busy that they could only speak with them for a few hours over the entire duration of their PhD. So my advice is to go to a group with people that are still "hungry" and that actually have time to coach you.

mettamage 5y ago
> IMHO, as a PhD student, what really matters is not how well your university is ranked but how well your research group is organized and how much the people there support you. I've noticed this as well and I'm not even a PhD student! For example, the Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam doesn't rank super high. Yet, when I look at their cyber security department, then they're top notch. In most cases though, industry doesn't care about any of this. So only do it if you're actually interested in research. PhD to industry doesn't translate well (high variability in where people end up).
- blitzar 5y ago
  That is more of a case of Department than group being highly ranked. Department reputation in the field is very important, particularly how they are seen by industry. > well your research group is organized and how much the people there support you. Controversial perhaps, but when academics are being dicks, nobody ever calls them out on it, academics close ranks and protect their own. Students come and go, professors are there for life. If there are issues with ones research group, there is no support. Chose wisely, but it is hard to know in advance what sort of environment there really is and how things will really play out.
- dagw 5y ago
  PhD to industry doesn't translate well Really depends on the field. On the whole people who have a PhD in Not-Computer Engineering tend to end up working in fields connected to what their PhD was in. I work in Civil Engineering and not only are there lots of PhDs around here most of them are working on things pretty close to what their research topic was, and where in fact specifically hired to do so. The PhDs who aren't working in their 'field' are generally more senior people who used to work or more relevant stuff but are now in more management roles.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  > In most cases though, industry doesn't care about any of this. That's not my experience, actually. There is a lot of snobbery in some cases. Some places (UK) make a point of only hiring from certain universities. A friend of mine did his PhD at Birmingham - good university, and excellent at his field, but not a top-5 one. He was on the LIGO experiment, and on the first gravitational wave detection. Got grilled about "why on earth did you go to study at Birmingham???" at a job interview. You might say, not a good place to work, and you'd be right, but the trend is real.
rich_sasha 5y ago
+1 Also, if you want the university's reputation to boost your CV, these things change over time. So the "brownie points" of "my university is top of a ranking" may not last very long. So pick somewhere reputable that will give you a good education and don't obsess about rankings.
SiempreViernes 5y ago
On the other hand, the fact there were so many different universities in Paris in the late 20th century was also pretty artificial: De Gaulle got sick of all these spicy students having opinions and split the whole thing up. But it's all just rather arbitrary rankings of rather arbitrary social constructions anyway, and as you say it's not that helpful for making accurate decisions for where you should apply anyway as what really matters is your supervisor and the support from the administration.
- arethuza 5y ago
  Aberdeen used to be very proud of the fact that for a long time they had the same number of universities as England: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_universities_of_Scotland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_universities_of_Scotla...
wanderingmind 5y ago
Or even better is just not do a PhD. Doing a PhD is one of the worst things that most people do to themselves. It mainly exists to provide cheap labour to exploitive universities while creating a huge opportunity cost for students. And worse does not provide any employable skills to more than 9 out of 10 PhDs who need to find a job outside academia. If you are thinking of doing a PhD you are better off just doing a master's. [1] https://medium.economist.com/why-doing-a-phd-is-often-a-waste-of-time-349206f9addb https://medium.economist.com/why-doing-a-phd-is-often-a-wast...
- ThePhysicist 5y ago
  Some things are hard to do outside a PhD or research context. I knew my PhD probably wouldn't "pay off" financially but that wasn't the goal to begin with. It gave me the opportunity to do some great research and work with amazing people, so I'm really happy to have done it. I also did research as part of my Diploma (M.Sc.) thesis, but it's just not comparable to a PhD.
- avnigo 5y ago
  I agree, but like you said, PhDs are valued more in terms of career progression and prospects for those working in research and academia, and if you don't get on that PhD train, you just kinda stall.

mettamage 5y ago

> IMHO, as a PhD student, what really matters is not how well your university is ranked but how well your research group is organized and how much the people there support you. I've noticed this as well and I'm not even a PhD student! For example, the Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam doesn't rank super high. Yet, when I look at their cyber security department, then they're top notch. In most cases though, industry doesn't care about any of this. So only do it if you're actually interested in research. PhD to industry doesn't translate well (high variability in where people end up).

blitzar 5y ago
That is more of a case of Department than group being highly ranked. Department reputation in the field is very important, particularly how they are seen by industry. > well your research group is organized and how much the people there support you. Controversial perhaps, but when academics are being dicks, nobody ever calls them out on it, academics close ranks and protect their own. Students come and go, professors are there for life. If there are issues with ones research group, there is no support. Chose wisely, but it is hard to know in advance what sort of environment there really is and how things will really play out.
dagw 5y ago
PhD to industry doesn't translate well Really depends on the field. On the whole people who have a PhD in Not-Computer Engineering tend to end up working in fields connected to what their PhD was in. I work in Civil Engineering and not only are there lots of PhDs around here most of them are working on things pretty close to what their research topic was, and where in fact specifically hired to do so. The PhDs who aren't working in their 'field' are generally more senior people who used to work or more relevant stuff but are now in more management roles.
rich_sasha 5y ago
> In most cases though, industry doesn't care about any of this. That's not my experience, actually. There is a lot of snobbery in some cases. Some places (UK) make a point of only hiring from certain universities. A friend of mine did his PhD at Birmingham - good university, and excellent at his field, but not a top-5 one. He was on the LIGO experiment, and on the first gravitational wave detection. Got grilled about "why on earth did you go to study at Birmingham???" at a job interview. You might say, not a good place to work, and you'd be right, but the trend is real.

rich_sasha 5y ago

+1 Also, if you want the university's reputation to boost your CV, these things change over time. So the "brownie points" of "my university is top of a ranking" may not last very long. So pick somewhere reputable that will give you a good education and don't obsess about rankings.

SiempreViernes 5y ago

On the other hand, the fact there were so many different universities in Paris in the late 20th century was also pretty artificial: De Gaulle got sick of all these spicy students having opinions and split the whole thing up. But it's all just rather arbitrary rankings of rather arbitrary social constructions anyway, and as you say it's not that helpful for making accurate decisions for where you should apply anyway as what really matters is your supervisor and the support from the administration.

arethuza 5y ago
Aberdeen used to be very proud of the fact that for a long time they had the same number of universities as England: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_universities_of_Scotland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_universities_of_Scotla...

wanderingmind 5y ago

Or even better is just not do a PhD. Doing a PhD is one of the worst things that most people do to themselves. It mainly exists to provide cheap labour to exploitive universities while creating a huge opportunity cost for students. And worse does not provide any employable skills to more than 9 out of 10 PhDs who need to find a job outside academia. If you are thinking of doing a PhD you are better off just doing a master's. [1] https://medium.economist.com/why-doing-a-phd-is-often-a-waste-of-time-349206f9addb https://medium.economist.com/why-doing-a-phd-is-often-a-wast...

ThePhysicist 5y ago
Some things are hard to do outside a PhD or research context. I knew my PhD probably wouldn't "pay off" financially but that wasn't the goal to begin with. It gave me the opportunity to do some great research and work with amazing people, so I'm really happy to have done it. I also did research as part of my Diploma (M.Sc.) thesis, but it's just not comparable to a PhD.
avnigo 5y ago
I agree, but like you said, PhDs are valued more in terms of career progression and prospects for those working in research and academia, and if you don't get on that PhD train, you just kinda stall.