3 ms·

There's no way Apple or any company to act as an extralegal entity in another country. Every time something like that comes up, I'm baffled by the expectation t

by mrtksn 5y ago

There's no way Apple or any company to act as an extralegal entity in another country. Every time something like that comes up, I'm baffled by the expectation that an American company will impose the American values or American laws in another country. Back in the day when the internet felt like international thing not bound by any local laws, that was possible to some degrees but legislators caught up with it. It is obvious that you don't sell your crypto finance stuff to Americans, you don't make anti-Putin stuff for Russians, you don't give Saudis encrypted messaging, you don't give Turks gambling apps, you don't sell Nazi stuff to Germans etc. on the internet, unless you are ready to face repercussions. They can try to find a legal angle if they believe there is one and that it will benefit them more than harm them but often there isn't one because gambling is illegal in Turkey, SEC has strict securities regulations in the USA, Putin has an absolute power in Russia and Saudis simply don't allow it. There is no way Apple or Google or any company facing the repercussions of not complying to the laws of Russia, therefore they will remove from the Russian AppStore whatever they are told to remove. Allowing alternative AppStores also wouldn't solve it but only delegate it to the people who run those alternative AppStores. Technological solutions to political problems work up until the politicians catch up. The more effective the technological solution the faster they catch up and take care of it. StarLink for example, a swarm of satellites that can technically provide unrestricted internet to anyone on the planet, will obey the local laws depending on where the user is connecting from. I know the technologist don't like it but there's no way around it. If you are in Russia, you are in Russia. Get rid of Putin, form a functioning democracy if you like to live in western-like country. No company is not going to provide you with the environment that people in the west built through struggles for generations.

whateveracct 5y ago
It really is a lowest common denominator. American companies would never impose American values, but they'll bend the knee to any authoritarian country with a juicy market.
- mrtksn 5y ago
  Can you please describe what it means to "bend a knee"? It sounds like following the local laws to me. Do you mean something else? What else they are supposed to do? Act as a rough agent? Be the East India Company of the century, recruit mercenaries and compel foreign nations to work they see fit?
  - gsich 5y ago
    Don't sell stuff in that country and act like the saviour of human rights in the other.
  - fabrika 5y ago
    There is no law in Russia that prevents Apple from hosting an app called Navalny published by Roman Rubanov. The content of the app is also legal even by Russian standards: it is basically a list of officially registered candidates supported by Navalny.
    - mrtksn 5y ago
      Maybe you should e-mail Apple and tell them. Give them a law and a business lesson. Anyway, the idea is that legal or not, it's up to the Russian people to create the environment. Maybe it's legal according to the text(I wouldn't know, not a Russian lawyer) but due to the corruption and power distribution maybe Putin can simply do whatever he wants. A gadget company cannot fix this, if you like to fix it you need to fix it yourself and then you can have companies publishing the Apps you like. You cannot delegate the job of creating a government and juridical system that has integrity to an American company. It's unreasonable to expect such a thing.
- pjc50 5y ago
  > American companies would never impose American values s/never/always, without even realising/ (they globalised FOSTA/SESTA, for example)
- vetinari 5y ago
  They are not supposed to impose American values abroad. How would you like, if Chinese companies would be imposing Chinese values in US? Exactly.
burnished 5y ago
They could not do business there.
- mrtksn 5y ago
  How this helps Russians? What Apple gets from it?
  - boudin 5y ago
    Integrity? That just show what their priorities are.
    - mrtksn 5y ago
      Integrity of what exactly?
      - boudin 5y ago
        This is the definition of Integrity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity It means that whatever apple says, they are only driven by the market. Any stance they have on privacy or security is pure bullshit, they don't and will never give a crap about it, they only care about their revenue, otherwise they wouldn't be in China for example. In this case, it proves that whatever they say about their stupid store and authoritarian approach to it, it is not and will never be in the interest of their users. It is just to make it easy for apple to enforce anything, whatever the source of the decision is, a dictator like here, or to destroy competition before launching their own crap like their keyboard on their watch. If apple would have cared once about their customers, they wouldn't have created an ecosystem that jailed them and would still make it easy for users to install the app they want.
        mrtksn 5y ago
        When Apple said that they will go vigilante to serve their customers? It's kind of obvious that any claim they make is implied to be within the limits of the government. Like every other legal company ever. There were no cannabis Apps in the US App Store up until the US decided to allow it. Were the users wronged by Apple when it was illegal?
lovasoa 5y ago
Freedom from oppression is not an American value, and Americans need to stop thinking that. It is a universal value, cherished by people all over the world, including in Russia. The russian people is being taken advantage of by a small oligarchy that steals their resources, and the app that Google and Apple removed was supposed to help them transition to more democracy during the upcoming elections. The outrage is perfectly justified.
- mrtksn 5y ago
  If there's something that Russians don't like, they need to fix it themselves. You should Google Afghanistan, or pretty much any Middle-Eastern country that was liberated by the Americans. See how well it ended.
  - glacia01 5y ago
    Why the fuck americans think it's all about them? This news is about an app, no one is asking USA to bomb putin for fuck sake.
  - lovasoa 5y ago
    They are fixing it themselves. And in the process of fixing it, they made an app. Google and Apple prevented the distribution of this app.
    - mrtksn 5y ago
      > Google and Apple prevented the distribution of this app. The Russian government made them. Please don’t twist the causality chain to push an agenda.
      - lovasoa 5y ago
        The regime asked them to, and at that point, they had the choice between siding with the regime, or the people. They chose the regime.
mithron 5y ago
Google and Apple were and still are not complying with Russian laws in many cases [1][2][3][4]. It's being fined and threatened in Russia. So it's not that they comply or not. It's just that they are very picky on when to comply and when not to. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-apple-google-fine-threat-alexey-navalny-app/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-apple-google-fine-threat... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/17/russia-asks-google-and-apple-to-remove-telegram-from-stores-ifax.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/17/russia-asks-google-and-apple... [3] https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/05/24/russia-gives-google-24-hour-ultimatum-to-remove-banned-content-a73990 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/05/24/russia-gives-googl... [4] https://archive.is/1TbdB https://archive.is/1TbdB
3np 5y ago
> Allowing alternative AppStores also wouldn't solve it but only delegate it to the people who run those alternative AppStores. That's the point, though. In and near moral and legal gray zones there's a whole range of plausible judgements; currently there is only not room for anything beyond that set by the incumbents. Not to mention cases like when people get deplatformed simply for business or political reasons (like Blizzard shutting off individuals outside of China to keep the Chinese market or Apple with the FlickType keyboard).

by mrtksn 5y ago

whateveracct 5y ago

It really is a lowest common denominator. American companies would never impose American values, but they'll bend the knee to any authoritarian country with a juicy market.

mrtksn 5y ago
Can you please describe what it means to "bend a knee"? It sounds like following the local laws to me. Do you mean something else? What else they are supposed to do? Act as a rough agent? Be the East India Company of the century, recruit mercenaries and compel foreign nations to work they see fit?
- gsich 5y ago
  Don't sell stuff in that country and act like the saviour of human rights in the other.
- fabrika 5y ago
  There is no law in Russia that prevents Apple from hosting an app called Navalny published by Roman Rubanov. The content of the app is also legal even by Russian standards: it is basically a list of officially registered candidates supported by Navalny.
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    Maybe you should e-mail Apple and tell them. Give them a law and a business lesson. Anyway, the idea is that legal or not, it's up to the Russian people to create the environment. Maybe it's legal according to the text(I wouldn't know, not a Russian lawyer) but due to the corruption and power distribution maybe Putin can simply do whatever he wants. A gadget company cannot fix this, if you like to fix it you need to fix it yourself and then you can have companies publishing the Apps you like. You cannot delegate the job of creating a government and juridical system that has integrity to an American company. It's unreasonable to expect such a thing.
pjc50 5y ago
> American companies would never impose American values s/never/always, without even realising/ (they globalised FOSTA/SESTA, for example)
vetinari 5y ago
They are not supposed to impose American values abroad. How would you like, if Chinese companies would be imposing Chinese values in US? Exactly.

burnished 5y ago

They could not do business there.

mrtksn 5y ago
How this helps Russians? What Apple gets from it?
- boudin 5y ago
  Integrity? That just show what their priorities are.
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    Integrity of what exactly?
    - boudin 5y ago
      This is the definition of Integrity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity It means that whatever apple says, they are only driven by the market. Any stance they have on privacy or security is pure bullshit, they don't and will never give a crap about it, they only care about their revenue, otherwise they wouldn't be in China for example. In this case, it proves that whatever they say about their stupid store and authoritarian approach to it, it is not and will never be in the interest of their users. It is just to make it easy for apple to enforce anything, whatever the source of the decision is, a dictator like here, or to destroy competition before launching their own crap like their keyboard on their watch. If apple would have cared once about their customers, they wouldn't have created an ecosystem that jailed them and would still make it easy for users to install the app they want.
      - mrtksn 5y ago
        When Apple said that they will go vigilante to serve their customers? It's kind of obvious that any claim they make is implied to be within the limits of the government. Like every other legal company ever. There were no cannabis Apps in the US App Store up until the US decided to allow it. Were the users wronged by Apple when it was illegal?

lovasoa 5y ago

Freedom from oppression is not an American value, and Americans need to stop thinking that. It is a universal value, cherished by people all over the world, including in Russia. The russian people is being taken advantage of by a small oligarchy that steals their resources, and the app that Google and Apple removed was supposed to help them transition to more democracy during the upcoming elections. The outrage is perfectly justified.

mrtksn 5y ago
If there's something that Russians don't like, they need to fix it themselves. You should Google Afghanistan, or pretty much any Middle-Eastern country that was liberated by the Americans. See how well it ended.
- glacia01 5y ago
  Why the fuck americans think it's all about them? This news is about an app, no one is asking USA to bomb putin for fuck sake.
- lovasoa 5y ago
  They are fixing it themselves. And in the process of fixing it, they made an app. Google and Apple prevented the distribution of this app.
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    > Google and Apple prevented the distribution of this app. The Russian government made them. Please don’t twist the causality chain to push an agenda.
    - lovasoa 5y ago
      The regime asked them to, and at that point, they had the choice between siding with the regime, or the people. They chose the regime.

mithron 5y ago

Google and Apple were and still are not complying with Russian laws in many cases [1][2][3][4]. It's being fined and threatened in Russia. So it's not that they comply or not. It's just that they are very picky on when to comply and when not to. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-apple-google-fine-threat-alexey-navalny-app/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-apple-google-fine-threat... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/17/russia-asks-google-and-apple-to-remove-telegram-from-stores-ifax.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/17/russia-asks-google-and-apple... [3] https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/05/24/russia-gives-google-24-hour-ultimatum-to-remove-banned-content-a73990 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/05/24/russia-gives-googl... [4] https://archive.is/1TbdB https://archive.is/1TbdB

3np 5y ago

> Allowing alternative AppStores also wouldn't solve it but only delegate it to the people who run those alternative AppStores. That's the point, though. In and near moral and legal gray zones there's a whole range of plausible judgements; currently there is only not room for anything beyond that set by the incumbents. Not to mention cases like when people get deplatformed simply for business or political reasons (like Blizzard shutting off individuals outside of China to keep the Chinese market or Apple with the FlickType keyboard).