5 ms·

Very sad when not even the massively rich will bother to do the right thing. "Sorry, need a few more billion, so we're going to side with an oppressive regime a

Very sad when not even the massively rich will bother to do the right thing. "Sorry, need a few more billion, so we're going to side with an oppressive regime against Democracy." Reminds me of a Dylan line "Will all the money you made buy back your soul?"

okamiueru 5y ago
Usually, we would sanction countries that did this. Maybe time to sanction companies? Otherwise, why do anyone expect them to do anything other than what is the most profitable? Its even illegal not to.
- throw_m239339 5y ago
  > Usually, we would sanction countries that did this. Maybe time to sanction companies? Otherwise, why do anyone expect them to do anything other than what is the most profitable? Its even illegal not to. Sanction for what exactly? Sanctions against nations don't work. USA has been sanctioning Cuba, Iran for half a century, no regime change whatsoever, it only hurt the population in these countries. USA are sanctioning Russia right now, is Putin gone? No. And you want to sanction Apple or Google for what? under what law? Isn't the whole argument made all the time now that these "private companies" are free to censor whoever they want for whatever reasons and they don't have to respect the concept of freedom of speech on their platform?
  - machomaster 5y ago
    I agree with you that sanctions against countries don't work. But then the next logical step is to propose the action that actually works: sanctions against individuals. Perhaps that's what should be done - sanctions against individual decision-makers at Google and Apple?..
    - Dah00n 5y ago
      That would make the US more of a pariah than it already is. Already most of the west only follow sanctions imposed by the US screaming and kicking unless it plays into their own agenda.
    - wwtrv 5y ago
      The US government allows Google to operate in Russia (unlike Iran for example). So how can it arbitrarily ’sanction’ employees for complying with the laws of a country their company operates in. Do that sound fair to you? It wouldn’t make any sense.
  - jonathanlydall 5y ago
    Not to say I am generally in favour of sanctions, but they did help in South Africa's case.
    - NoGravitas 5y ago
      It wasn't just sanctions in that case, but also boycotts and divestment (via shareholder activism). Which is why Israel is so keen to get US state legislatures to ban speech in favor of the BDS movement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws
  - 2xpress 5y ago
    Had Cuba and Iran not been sanctioned it would have been a lot worse.
throw_m239339 5y ago
> Very sad when not even the massively rich will bother to do the right thing. This is so bizarre, what did people expect here? Apple has been complying with Chinese communist party demands for decades and who knows what Google did. But when it's the Russian government, it's where people on HN draw the line? These companies certainly want their phones/ecosystem to be sold or used in Russia, they only care about whatever values you think they care about for PR reason in USA. Same for Twitter, Facebook and co. They are rich for these very reasons, they were never champion of whatever ideals people here think they stand for. Especially Apple, which is a ruthless company with a well oiled marketing machine. People need to wake up to that fact. There is nothing "woke" with these companies other than their PR. So I hear the argument "well Russia isn't that much of a big market for Apple, Google, and co...". These corporations don't want to make an enemy of the Russian government either. edit: I'm not defending the actions of the Russian government or Google or Apple caving to their demands, I'd love Russia to be a free and open society. I'm just questioning why is China constantly let off the hook here or in other tech circles, when it always was a brutal dictatorship with no elections to begin with? Is it because westerners relate less to the Chinese because of their race or something? Or because they don't want to admit that THEY directly profit from China's dictatorship and its industry (and capital)? whereas nothing they use gets build in Russia?
- ethanbond 5y ago
  Apple gets lambasted for activities in China all the time by many of the same people
  - throw_m239339 5y ago
    > Apple gets lambasted for activities in China all the time by many of the same people Apple released new iPhones a few days ago, can you point me to the comments on HN on the new iPhone threads talking about their relationship with China?
    - fsflover 5y ago
      It's not in every single thread but it's frequently mentioned.
Closi 5y ago
> Very sad when not even the massively rich will bother to do the right thing. The issue is Google and Apple isn't owned by one massively rich person. They are owned by tens of thousands of shareholders, many extremely wealthy but most small, including both individual investors but also pension funds and hedge funds, and the CEO & Board are legally obligated to act in their fiduciary interest.
- davedx 5y ago
  > legally obligated to act in their fiduciary interest. Can you provide a citation of which law requires this?
  - easton 5y ago
    It is probably a bundle of all three, but "duty of good faith" fits the best here. "The duty to act in good faith is an obligation not only to make decisions free from self-interest, but also free of any interest that diverts the control persons from acting in the best interest of the company." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiduciary#Fiduciary_duties_under_Delaware_corporate_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiduciary#Fiduciary_duties_und...)
- lowercase1 5y ago
  Many of those shareholders are diversified and may benefit more from a freer Russia than they lose in short term google profits
- deltron3030 5y ago
  > CEO & Board are legally obligated to act in their fiduciary interest. Short or long term? Because shitting on democracy for money is potentially very damaging for brands in the long term, the market and especially future comptetitors will remember it.
  - Dah00n 5y ago
    I doubt that is true. The loss in the US versus all the money made in Russia and China? A drop in a sea of money. Also not everyone, especially outside the US, sees this as Democracy Vs. Bad regimes. Many see the US and China as equally bad so doing the US' bidding is no better than doing China's.

okamiueru 5y ago

Usually, we would sanction countries that did this. Maybe time to sanction companies? Otherwise, why do anyone expect them to do anything other than what is the most profitable? Its even illegal not to.

throw_m239339 5y ago
> Usually, we would sanction countries that did this. Maybe time to sanction companies? Otherwise, why do anyone expect them to do anything other than what is the most profitable? Its even illegal not to. Sanction for what exactly? Sanctions against nations don't work. USA has been sanctioning Cuba, Iran for half a century, no regime change whatsoever, it only hurt the population in these countries. USA are sanctioning Russia right now, is Putin gone? No. And you want to sanction Apple or Google for what? under what law? Isn't the whole argument made all the time now that these "private companies" are free to censor whoever they want for whatever reasons and they don't have to respect the concept of freedom of speech on their platform?
- machomaster 5y ago
  I agree with you that sanctions against countries don't work. But then the next logical step is to propose the action that actually works: sanctions against individuals. Perhaps that's what should be done - sanctions against individual decision-makers at Google and Apple?..
  - Dah00n 5y ago
    That would make the US more of a pariah than it already is. Already most of the west only follow sanctions imposed by the US screaming and kicking unless it plays into their own agenda.
  - wwtrv 5y ago
    The US government allows Google to operate in Russia (unlike Iran for example). So how can it arbitrarily ’sanction’ employees for complying with the laws of a country their company operates in. Do that sound fair to you? It wouldn’t make any sense.
- jonathanlydall 5y ago
  Not to say I am generally in favour of sanctions, but they did help in South Africa's case.
  - NoGravitas 5y ago
    It wasn't just sanctions in that case, but also boycotts and divestment (via shareholder activism). Which is why Israel is so keen to get US state legislatures to ban speech in favor of the BDS movement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws
- 2xpress 5y ago
  Had Cuba and Iran not been sanctioned it would have been a lot worse.

throw_m239339 5y ago

> Very sad when not even the massively rich will bother to do the right thing. This is so bizarre, what did people expect here? Apple has been complying with Chinese communist party demands for decades and who knows what Google did. But when it's the Russian government, it's where people on HN draw the line? These companies certainly want their phones/ecosystem to be sold or used in Russia, they only care about whatever values you think they care about for PR reason in USA. Same for Twitter, Facebook and co. They are rich for these very reasons, they were never champion of whatever ideals people here think they stand for. Especially Apple, which is a ruthless company with a well oiled marketing machine. People need to wake up to that fact. There is nothing "woke" with these companies other than their PR. So I hear the argument "well Russia isn't that much of a big market for Apple, Google, and co...". These corporations don't want to make an enemy of the Russian government either. edit: I'm not defending the actions of the Russian government or Google or Apple caving to their demands, I'd love Russia to be a free and open society. I'm just questioning why is China constantly let off the hook here or in other tech circles, when it always was a brutal dictatorship with no elections to begin with? Is it because westerners relate less to the Chinese because of their race or something? Or because they don't want to admit that THEY directly profit from China's dictatorship and its industry (and capital)? whereas nothing they use gets build in Russia?

ethanbond 5y ago
Apple gets lambasted for activities in China all the time by many of the same people
- throw_m239339 5y ago
  > Apple gets lambasted for activities in China all the time by many of the same people Apple released new iPhones a few days ago, can you point me to the comments on HN on the new iPhone threads talking about their relationship with China?
  - fsflover 5y ago
    It's not in every single thread but it's frequently mentioned.

Closi 5y ago

> Very sad when not even the massively rich will bother to do the right thing. The issue is Google and Apple isn't owned by one massively rich person. They are owned by tens of thousands of shareholders, many extremely wealthy but most small, including both individual investors but also pension funds and hedge funds, and the CEO & Board are legally obligated to act in their fiduciary interest.

davedx 5y ago
> legally obligated to act in their fiduciary interest. Can you provide a citation of which law requires this?
- easton 5y ago
  It is probably a bundle of all three, but "duty of good faith" fits the best here. "The duty to act in good faith is an obligation not only to make decisions free from self-interest, but also free of any interest that diverts the control persons from acting in the best interest of the company." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiduciary#Fiduciary_duties_under_Delaware_corporate_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiduciary#Fiduciary_duties_und...)
lowercase1 5y ago
Many of those shareholders are diversified and may benefit more from a freer Russia than they lose in short term google profits
deltron3030 5y ago
> CEO & Board are legally obligated to act in their fiduciary interest. Short or long term? Because shitting on democracy for money is potentially very damaging for brands in the long term, the market and especially future comptetitors will remember it.
- Dah00n 5y ago
  I doubt that is true. The loss in the US versus all the money made in Russia and China? A drop in a sea of money. Also not everyone, especially outside the US, sees this as Democracy Vs. Bad regimes. Many see the US and China as equally bad so doing the US' bidding is no better than doing China's.