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Australia doesn't have an independent foreign policy. This deal just shows who is in who's pocket. Australia has no choice because it can't defend itself. It ha

Australia doesn't have an independent foreign policy. This deal just shows who is in who's pocket. Australia has no choice because it can't defend itself. It has no military capability to defend against any enemy. It means we Australians are destined to follow the US again into whatever conflict the US finds itself in. Because if we don't, we're on our own, and a very big (geographically) and soft target.

mytailorisrich 5y ago
You're right but I don't think that this implies that they have no choice but to be an American 'protectorate'. It obviously used to be a British colony (and obviously is still formally part of the British Realm) and IMHO effectively switched to being an American 'protectorate' during WWII.
- sotruesotrue 5y ago
  Having the technology to sink the massive kind of surface fleet an adversary needs to reach Australia, guarantees Australian freedom, independence and self determination. Australia has friends in the world with no desire or interest in oppressing them.
marcus_holmes 5y ago
I've had this discussion a few times. I don't think we live in the same world any more, where physical invasion of country is advantageous. What exactly are we defending against? I just don't see the Chinese trying to invade and control Australia. What would they get from that? All the resources? They already get those - and it's a lot cheaper to just buy them than it would be to keep a hostile invading army in place to dig them up themselves. China even operates some mines on Australian soil already (with all-Chinese staff, flown in direct from China). What on earth could they take from us that we won't sell them freely? Australia is a US naval/supply/intelligence base, and that's it. The only militarily interesting targets in the country are owned by the US. I think the Kiwis got the right idea here. The only way to win this game is to not play.
- roca 5y ago
  Subs could be useful to protect/attack shipping or military assets that are protecting/attacking shipping. It does seem improbable that we will see large scale land invasions of developed countries. However, European nations also thought that was improbable pre-WW1. It's not crazy to err on the side of caution here. After all you could ask the same questions about the Chinese military build-up --- no-one's going to invade mainland China, obviously. NZers definitely don't want to be in the nuclear sub business but I think the majority of NZers are concerned about the direction of the CCP and are happy to be part of ANZUS and Five Eyes. Sure, we want to keep taking China's money but if push comes to shove there's no doubt which side we're on.

mytailorisrich 5y ago

You're right but I don't think that this implies that they have no choice but to be an American 'protectorate'. It obviously used to be a British colony (and obviously is still formally part of the British Realm) and IMHO effectively switched to being an American 'protectorate' during WWII.

sotruesotrue 5y ago
Having the technology to sink the massive kind of surface fleet an adversary needs to reach Australia, guarantees Australian freedom, independence and self determination. Australia has friends in the world with no desire or interest in oppressing them.

marcus_holmes 5y ago

I've had this discussion a few times. I don't think we live in the same world any more, where physical invasion of country is advantageous. What exactly are we defending against? I just don't see the Chinese trying to invade and control Australia. What would they get from that? All the resources? They already get those - and it's a lot cheaper to just buy them than it would be to keep a hostile invading army in place to dig them up themselves. China even operates some mines on Australian soil already (with all-Chinese staff, flown in direct from China). What on earth could they take from us that we won't sell them freely? Australia is a US naval/supply/intelligence base, and that's it. The only militarily interesting targets in the country are owned by the US. I think the Kiwis got the right idea here. The only way to win this game is to not play.

roca 5y ago
Subs could be useful to protect/attack shipping or military assets that are protecting/attacking shipping. It does seem improbable that we will see large scale land invasions of developed countries. However, European nations also thought that was improbable pre-WW1. It's not crazy to err on the side of caution here. After all you could ask the same questions about the Chinese military build-up --- no-one's going to invade mainland China, obviously. NZers definitely don't want to be in the nuclear sub business but I think the majority of NZers are concerned about the direction of the CCP and are happy to be part of ANZUS and Five Eyes. Sure, we want to keep taking China's money but if push comes to shove there's no doubt which side we're on.