6 ms·

Waste from one Bitcoin transaction ‘like binning two iPhones’

58 points by edward 5y ago

tentacleuno 5y ago
I'm not sure about all this "Bitcoin is killing the planet" stuff. Obviously it takes a LOT of energy, but isn't it the energy companies' fault for not using renewable forms of energy? You could also say me boiling the kettle is killing the earth, but thankfully I've never heard anyone say that.
- asplake 5y ago
  Right at the top: Study highlights vast churn in computer hardware that the cryptocurrency incentivises
  - tentacleuno 5y ago
    My apologies. I assumed it was in relation to energy use as always.
- pjc50 5y ago
  It's literally a proof-of-waste system, that automatically adapts to increase waste as the network grows.
- Ma8ee 5y ago
  No, by buying and using energy that isn't produced in a sustainable way you too are responsible for the damage it does. But as others already have pointed out, this is not what the article is about.
  - tentacleuno 5y ago
    > No, by buying and using energy that isn't produced in a sustainable way you too are responsible for the damage it does. We'll have to disagree on that one. If the energy companies won't invest in the greener solution, I don't see how people consuming that energy can be blamed. As much as I hate miners, blaming them for the disaster that is the energy industry is wrong.
    - frereubu 5y ago
      It doesn't have to be either / or, it can be both.
    - Ma8ee 5y ago
      Of course you are partially responsible for everything you are spending money on, whether it is energy or blood diamonds. That is hardly controversial. If you wouldn't spend the money, it wouldn't be produced. And no one is demanding that you should stop using energy completely because you only can buy dirty energy, but you can choose to use less of it, by not using it for something that so far only have proved to be a huge Ponzi scheme. In many parts of the world you can choose to pay more for cleaner energy. But that would of course reduce the profit from mining.
    - Devasta 5y ago
      Bitcoin is designed to waste as much energy as possible. Even if the energy companies waved a magic wand and had a huge amount of renewable energy onboard tomorrow, the end result would be the miners would continue to consume the energy from fossil fuels, but they would also consume all the renewable energy too.
robbedpeter 5y ago
More fud from the establishment financial priesthood. They're pushing so hard lately its making me want to convert everything to crypto.
- Ma8ee 5y ago
  Is there anything specific in the article that isn't true?
  - Tenoke 5y ago
    >Other bitcoin alternatives have been less successful at limiting their environmental footprint. Chia, a cryptocurrency that is built on a “proof of time and space” algorithm, has been accused of leading to shortages in hard drives and SSDs, a type of storage medium popular in fast computers. “Instead of just wasting electricity, Chia chews through SSDs at a fantastic rate and also has thoroughly wrecked the market for big HDs,” said David Gerard, a cryptocurrency expert. This part is at least disingenuous. The real movement away from PoW is in PoS coins but all they say is that it 'ha[s] been less successful' citing the worst that has come out and from a small project at that, and mentioning ETH's slow move to it as if there aren't other projects already using it.
    - HelixEndeavor 5y ago
      I'm sorry but my brain will only let me read that as "Piece of Shit coins"
  - rndhouse 5y ago
    It's completely disingenuous to discuss this topic without taking into account the lightning network.
- ASalazarMX 5y ago
  > They're pushing so hard lately its making me want to convert everything to crypto These days climate change and pollution is in everyone's minds. Can't blame us for lashing out at wasteful practices. I think cryptocurrencies get more hate here that electron apps here, and that's saying something.
frereubu 5y ago
Note for those that haven't read the article - this is about discarded hardware, not power consumption.
flixic 5y ago
Current comments seem to be responding to the wrong topic. This article is not at all about energy use, but about mining hardware lifetime and resulting eWaste. Which seems like a legit argument, and harder to dismiss with "but it uses renewable energy".
- thathndude 5y ago
  As soon as I read the article, this clicked immediately, but I foolishly had never considered it before. About five minutes before this comment, I just bought the new iPhone. And, no doubt, many people, perhaps rightly, would criticize the yearly upgrade. A coin functions at a much much larger waist scale than my yearly upgrade. Kind of mind-boggling the more I try and wrap my head around it.
  - HelixEndeavor 5y ago
    Not to mention you presumably don't throw your old iPhone in the garbage after you upgrade.
- invalidname 5y ago
  I'm sure you know it but it has to be said that the "it uses renewable energy" argument is the dumbest argument ever. That means it takes renewable energy reserves away from something useful like replacing coal, gas etc. If we were already at 100% renewable energy then sure... but at this point in time it's just the dumbest argument ever.
  - ajkdhcb2 5y ago
    >it takes renewable energy reserves away from something useful Not necessarily true because energy transport and storage can be a serious issue that makes other usages impractical. Bitcoin mining can be done at the energy source regardless of the location.
  - me_me_me 5y ago
    Or maybe its creating demand on renewable that drives companies to invest more into renewable energy generation.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mettamage 5y ago
So they compare the two iPhones because of the weight. But are they also comparing it with design and intricacy. I know we're talking about ASICs here. But I wonder what's more complicated (by a factor of 10), an iPhone or ASICs? I have no clue, I don't even know what the acronym ASIC stands for (I guess IC = integrated chip, A = autonomous? S = single? That's my guess anyway). Ah, Application-specific integrated circuit. 1 out of 4!
ciconia 5y ago
Here's the paper cited: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921344921005103?dgcid=author https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09213...
duckah 5y ago
Everything is waste if you don't value it. Sage.
- ASalazarMX 5y ago
  Must be a novice sage. I don't value the random pebbles I step on when walking outside, but that doesn't make them waste, just valueless to me.
  - negsd 5y ago
    There was an attempt. Pebbles have nothing to do with the discussion of human consumption and what constitutes waste.
ajkdhcb2 5y ago
Monero addresses this by using an ASIC-resistant proof of work algorithm: general purpose hardware is used for mining, which won't just be thrown away because it can be sold and used for other purposes
- bitxbitxbitcoin 5y ago
  Yet there are/were Monero ASICS nonetheless. ASIC resistance is a marketing term - especially for Monero.
  - ajkdhcb2 5y ago
    The current algorithm takes a completely different approach compared to when there were failures several years ago. It's not marketing, people have been rightfully sceptical but it seems like it works

58 points by edward 5y ago

I'm not sure about all this "Bitcoin is killing the planet" stuff. Obviously it takes a LOT of energy, but isn't it the energy companies' fault for not using renewable forms of energy? You could also say me boiling the kettle is killing the earth, but thankfully I've never heard anyone say that.

asplake 5y ago
Right at the top: Study highlights vast churn in computer hardware that the cryptocurrency incentivises
- tentacleuno 5y ago
  My apologies. I assumed it was in relation to energy use as always.
pjc50 5y ago
It's literally a proof-of-waste system, that automatically adapts to increase waste as the network grows.
Ma8ee 5y ago
No, by buying and using energy that isn't produced in a sustainable way you too are responsible for the damage it does. But as others already have pointed out, this is not what the article is about.
- tentacleuno 5y ago
  > No, by buying and using energy that isn't produced in a sustainable way you too are responsible for the damage it does. We'll have to disagree on that one. If the energy companies won't invest in the greener solution, I don't see how people consuming that energy can be blamed. As much as I hate miners, blaming them for the disaster that is the energy industry is wrong.
  - frereubu 5y ago
    It doesn't have to be either / or, it can be both.
  - Ma8ee 5y ago
    Of course you are partially responsible for everything you are spending money on, whether it is energy or blood diamonds. That is hardly controversial. If you wouldn't spend the money, it wouldn't be produced. And no one is demanding that you should stop using energy completely because you only can buy dirty energy, but you can choose to use less of it, by not using it for something that so far only have proved to be a huge Ponzi scheme. In many parts of the world you can choose to pay more for cleaner energy. But that would of course reduce the profit from mining.
  - Devasta 5y ago
    Bitcoin is designed to waste as much energy as possible. Even if the energy companies waved a magic wand and had a huge amount of renewable energy onboard tomorrow, the end result would be the miners would continue to consume the energy from fossil fuels, but they would also consume all the renewable energy too.

robbedpeter 5y ago

More fud from the establishment financial priesthood. They're pushing so hard lately its making me want to convert everything to crypto.

Ma8ee 5y ago
Is there anything specific in the article that isn't true?
- Tenoke 5y ago
  >Other bitcoin alternatives have been less successful at limiting their environmental footprint. Chia, a cryptocurrency that is built on a “proof of time and space” algorithm, has been accused of leading to shortages in hard drives and SSDs, a type of storage medium popular in fast computers. “Instead of just wasting electricity, Chia chews through SSDs at a fantastic rate and also has thoroughly wrecked the market for big HDs,” said David Gerard, a cryptocurrency expert. This part is at least disingenuous. The real movement away from PoW is in PoS coins but all they say is that it 'ha[s] been less successful' citing the worst that has come out and from a small project at that, and mentioning ETH's slow move to it as if there aren't other projects already using it.
  - HelixEndeavor 5y ago
    I'm sorry but my brain will only let me read that as "Piece of Shit coins"
- rndhouse 5y ago
  It's completely disingenuous to discuss this topic without taking into account the lightning network.
ASalazarMX 5y ago
> They're pushing so hard lately its making me want to convert everything to crypto These days climate change and pollution is in everyone's minds. Can't blame us for lashing out at wasteful practices. I think cryptocurrencies get more hate here that electron apps here, and that's saying something.

frereubu 5y ago

Note for those that haven't read the article - this is about discarded hardware, not power consumption.

flixic 5y ago

Current comments seem to be responding to the wrong topic. This article is not at all about energy use, but about mining hardware lifetime and resulting eWaste. Which seems like a legit argument, and harder to dismiss with "but it uses renewable energy".

thathndude 5y ago
As soon as I read the article, this clicked immediately, but I foolishly had never considered it before. About five minutes before this comment, I just bought the new iPhone. And, no doubt, many people, perhaps rightly, would criticize the yearly upgrade. A coin functions at a much much larger waist scale than my yearly upgrade. Kind of mind-boggling the more I try and wrap my head around it.
- HelixEndeavor 5y ago
  Not to mention you presumably don't throw your old iPhone in the garbage after you upgrade.
invalidname 5y ago
I'm sure you know it but it has to be said that the "it uses renewable energy" argument is the dumbest argument ever. That means it takes renewable energy reserves away from something useful like replacing coal, gas etc. If we were already at 100% renewable energy then sure... but at this point in time it's just the dumbest argument ever.
- ajkdhcb2 5y ago
  >it takes renewable energy reserves away from something useful Not necessarily true because energy transport and storage can be a serious issue that makes other usages impractical. Bitcoin mining can be done at the energy source regardless of the location.
- me_me_me 5y ago
  Or maybe its creating demand on renewable that drives companies to invest more into renewable energy generation.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

mettamage 5y ago

So they compare the two iPhones because of the weight. But are they also comparing it with design and intricacy. I know we're talking about ASICs here. But I wonder what's more complicated (by a factor of 10), an iPhone or ASICs? I have no clue, I don't even know what the acronym ASIC stands for (I guess IC = integrated chip, A = autonomous? S = single? That's my guess anyway). Ah, Application-specific integrated circuit. 1 out of 4!

ciconia 5y ago

Here's the paper cited: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921344921005103?dgcid=author https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09213...

duckah 5y ago

Everything is waste if you don't value it. Sage.

ASalazarMX 5y ago
Must be a novice sage. I don't value the random pebbles I step on when walking outside, but that doesn't make them waste, just valueless to me.
- negsd 5y ago
  There was an attempt. Pebbles have nothing to do with the discussion of human consumption and what constitutes waste.

ajkdhcb2 5y ago

Monero addresses this by using an ASIC-resistant proof of work algorithm: general purpose hardware is used for mining, which won't just be thrown away because it can be sold and used for other purposes

bitxbitxbitcoin 5y ago
Yet there are/were Monero ASICS nonetheless. ASIC resistance is a marketing term - especially for Monero.
- ajkdhcb2 5y ago
  The current algorithm takes a completely different approach compared to when there were failures several years ago. It's not marketing, people have been rightfully sceptical but it seems like it works