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> This is a good change. It doesn’t allow people to hide behind the shield of “good intentions” while refusing to change their behavior. I just had a negative

by asguy 5y ago

> This is a good change. It doesn’t allow people to hide behind the shield of “good intentions” while refusing to change their behavior. I just had a negative emotional response to your perspective on this subject. It made me slightly upset that someone would think that this is a good change. Should you change your perspective now that you've `learn[ed] of its negative impact on others`, or should I get over it and recognize that other people can have different opinions and I shouldn't let that affect me?

Nicksil 5y ago
You're being down-voted but you're spot on. >This is a good change. It doesn’t allow people to hide behind the shield of “good intentions” while refusing to change their behavior. Refusing to change your behavior after learning of its negative impacts on others is negligent best. Is woefully flawed logic. Expecting someone to change their behavior when someone else says they're offended is awful. The assumption is that the person speaking is always in the wrong and the complainant is always being genuine.
- travisd 5y ago
  The slippery slope fallacy is exactly that: a fallacy. There’s an obvious distinction between “I disagree with the merits of your PR therefore I’m going to claim that I’m offended” and “please do not misgender me.” The former is a strawman argument. Everything needs nuance and discretion. The world is complicated. But throwing our hands up in the air and saying “this could hypothetically be abused” is not a reason to remain paralyzed in the face of hostility within a community.
  - Nicksil 5y ago
    >There’s an obvious distinction between... To whom, exactly? This is where things begin to fall apart because something "obvious" to you is such due to a number of factors -- the culture and society you grew up in being only part of the equation -- while not at all obvious to many others. You're attempting to draw a hard, objective line in something very subjective. This is why this problem isn't easy to solve and why it is very easy for otherwise good-intentioned folks to be chastised. >Everything needs nuance and discretion. The world is complicated. I agree. >But throwing our hands up in the air and saying “this could hypothetically be abused” is not a reason to remain paralyzed in the face of hostility within a community. You just built a straw-man argument, completely blowing away the previous statement. Not every slight will be composed of some obvious insult to transgendered folks. There have been and will continue to be perceived slights where no such thing was intended. On top of all that there have been and will continue to be people who feign offense and will attempt to have someone they disagree with tared, feathered, and removed. How do you intend to deal with the latter of these scenarios; when someone innocent is accused? You can avoid many such events by considering the nuance and acting with discretion. What you said so far does none of that.
    - runarberg 5y ago
      If GGP was being genuine and was really insulted by GGGPs suggested (which from the tone of the post, they probably weren’t) then there is every reason to talk to GGGP and ask them to change their behavior, if they fail to do so, you might start to think they are acting in malice towards GGP. If the insult is obvious then the case is pretty clear cut, however if it not we can believe at least believe GGP when they claim they were hurt. They might have a reason to be hurt that we don’t know about.
  - xboxnolifes 5y ago
    It's not a slippery slope fallacy because no slope is even being talked about. The logic is wrong from the start, no future changes needed.
  - RattleyCooper 5y ago
    >The slippery slope fallacy is exactly that: a fallacy. The slippery slope fallacy is only a fallacy when there is no prior evidence of said thing happening in the past. People who parrot "slippery slope is a fallacy", like in this case, are merely participating in the fallacy of cherry-picking. They're ignoring when slippery slope is not a fallacy and acting like any slippery-slope argument is fallacious when it isn't.
- tacitusarc 5y ago
  Even worse: it is easy to be genuine and wrong. The world is full of people who are genuine and wrong. The position of magistrate is time-honored and cross-cultural for a reason. It’s not good enough to just make up rules and assume they solve the problem.
runarberg 5y ago
> Should you change your perspective now that you've `learn[ed] of its negative impact on others`, or should I get over it and recognize that other people can have different opinions and I shouldn't let that affect me? The former. Microaggression is harmful not because any one instance of it hurts, but the share quantity of it is devastating. When a person experiences microaggression it might be really hard for you to empathize since the same exact behavior directed at you is not hurtful at all. Example, as a cis male with a slightly feminine look I have been mis-gendered a couple of times, it was not a big deal and I’m able to get over it fairly quickly. However for trans people this might happen so often that it overwhelms them. When someone says to you that your behavior was harmful to them you cannot possibly know exactly how that feels, and the best thing you can do is believe them, apologize, and change your behavior.

by asguy 5y ago

Nicksil 5y ago

You're being down-voted but you're spot on. >This is a good change. It doesn’t allow people to hide behind the shield of “good intentions” while refusing to change their behavior. Refusing to change your behavior after learning of its negative impacts on others is negligent best. Is woefully flawed logic. Expecting someone to change their behavior when someone else says they're offended is awful. The assumption is that the person speaking is always in the wrong and the complainant is always being genuine.

travisd 5y ago
The slippery slope fallacy is exactly that: a fallacy. There’s an obvious distinction between “I disagree with the merits of your PR therefore I’m going to claim that I’m offended” and “please do not misgender me.” The former is a strawman argument. Everything needs nuance and discretion. The world is complicated. But throwing our hands up in the air and saying “this could hypothetically be abused” is not a reason to remain paralyzed in the face of hostility within a community.
- Nicksil 5y ago
  >There’s an obvious distinction between... To whom, exactly? This is where things begin to fall apart because something "obvious" to you is such due to a number of factors -- the culture and society you grew up in being only part of the equation -- while not at all obvious to many others. You're attempting to draw a hard, objective line in something very subjective. This is why this problem isn't easy to solve and why it is very easy for otherwise good-intentioned folks to be chastised. >Everything needs nuance and discretion. The world is complicated. I agree. >But throwing our hands up in the air and saying “this could hypothetically be abused” is not a reason to remain paralyzed in the face of hostility within a community. You just built a straw-man argument, completely blowing away the previous statement. Not every slight will be composed of some obvious insult to transgendered folks. There have been and will continue to be perceived slights where no such thing was intended. On top of all that there have been and will continue to be people who feign offense and will attempt to have someone they disagree with tared, feathered, and removed. How do you intend to deal with the latter of these scenarios; when someone innocent is accused? You can avoid many such events by considering the nuance and acting with discretion. What you said so far does none of that.
  - runarberg 5y ago
    If GGP was being genuine and was really insulted by GGGPs suggested (which from the tone of the post, they probably weren’t) then there is every reason to talk to GGGP and ask them to change their behavior, if they fail to do so, you might start to think they are acting in malice towards GGP. If the insult is obvious then the case is pretty clear cut, however if it not we can believe at least believe GGP when they claim they were hurt. They might have a reason to be hurt that we don’t know about.
- xboxnolifes 5y ago
  It's not a slippery slope fallacy because no slope is even being talked about. The logic is wrong from the start, no future changes needed.
- RattleyCooper 5y ago
  >The slippery slope fallacy is exactly that: a fallacy. The slippery slope fallacy is only a fallacy when there is no prior evidence of said thing happening in the past. People who parrot "slippery slope is a fallacy", like in this case, are merely participating in the fallacy of cherry-picking. They're ignoring when slippery slope is not a fallacy and acting like any slippery-slope argument is fallacious when it isn't.
tacitusarc 5y ago
Even worse: it is easy to be genuine and wrong. The world is full of people who are genuine and wrong. The position of magistrate is time-honored and cross-cultural for a reason. It’s not good enough to just make up rules and assume they solve the problem.

runarberg 5y ago

> Should you change your perspective now that you've `learn[ed] of its negative impact on others`, or should I get over it and recognize that other people can have different opinions and I shouldn't let that affect me? The former. Microaggression is harmful not because any one instance of it hurts, but the share quantity of it is devastating. When a person experiences microaggression it might be really hard for you to empathize since the same exact behavior directed at you is not hurtful at all. Example, as a cis male with a slightly feminine look I have been mis-gendered a couple of times, it was not a big deal and I’m able to get over it fairly quickly. However for trans people this might happen so often that it overwhelms them. When someone says to you that your behavior was harmful to them you cannot possibly know exactly how that feels, and the best thing you can do is believe them, apologize, and change your behavior.