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> PS: I am strong supporter of Gun rights and proud gun owner. I don't understand the pride bit. It seems like a regrettable situation where your distrust of

by Jedd 5y ago

> PS: I am strong supporter of Gun rights and proud gun owner. I don't understand the pride bit. It seems like a regrettable situation where your distrust of your fellow citizens is so strong that you are comforted by the ability to kill them with minimal effort. (I'm in Australia, where we have some truly horrendous legislation, but I totally agree with our gun ownership laws here, and echo other people's observations that gun ownership does not seem to equate to, or ineluctably lead to, better laws / more freedoms outside the right 'to own lethal weapons' itself.) Perhaps I could interest you in some Iain M Banks (taken from Excession) : "It could see that - by some criteria - a warship, just by the perfectly articulated purity of its purpose, was the most beautiful single artifact the Culture was capable of producing, and at the same time understand the paucity of moral vision such a judgement implied. To fully appreciate the beauty of a weapon was to admit to a kind of shortsightedness close to blindness, to confess to a sort of stupidity. The weapon was not itself; nothing was solely itself. The weapon, like anything else, could only finally be judged by the effect it had on others, by the consequences it produced in some outside context, by its place in the rest of the universe. By this measure the love, or just the appreciation of weapons was a kind of tragedy."

nverno 5y ago
> It seems like a regrettable situation where your distrust of your fellow citizens is so strong that you are comforted by the ability to kill them with minimal effort. It's usually the opposite sentiment for gun owners- I trust my fellow citizens with arms. Guns are seen as an integral part of self-reliance by many. They provide you with a reasonably effective defense. One way to significantly erode individual's/citizen's power, and in turn give power to government, is take away their ability to defend themselves. People worry that as government becomes more powerful and citizens more reliant there is greater likelihood of oppressive government, in other words disarming populace is step down a slippery slope
- Jedd 5y ago
  > Guns are seen as an integral part of self-reliance by many. For context, can you clarify if the many you're referring to there are some fellow USA citizens? If so, I'll note that USA is < 5% of global population, and also note a very fresh Pew paper[0] which indicated more than half of that population was keen on stricter gun controls. So 'many' has some caveats around it. > They provide you with a reasonably effective defense. Against what? Other people with guns, or other people with feebler weapons? If it's the former, then we're back to a basic escalation problem, and it's what most other western nation states have avoided falling prey to by, simply, not playing that game. If you trust your fellow citizens with arms - who is it that you don't trust and that you need a weapon for 'effective defense'? As to: > ... in other words disarming populace is step down a slippery slope. I really can't speak to what it looks like from within the borders of the USA, but from outside, it feels that the USA is well down that slippery slope (of eroded freedoms, and citizenry exploitation) compared to many other democratic nations - so guns in the hands of private citizens don't appear to be a panacea. [0] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/09/13/key-facts-about-americans-and-guns/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/09/13/key-facts-a...
  - nverno 5y ago
    Yea I'm referring to fellow US citizens (I am also an Australian citizen, but the Aussie half of my family could care less about guns). I grew up rural in US and now live in the city. It may as well be two different countries with respect to views on gun ownership, so nationwide polls won't capture any of the variation (also state to state is massive difference). > Against what? Other people with guns, or other people with feebler weapons? Any living threat, which could be a much much larger attacker or mob of attackers. Consider the rattlesnake, it's the same thing- a great deterrent. It's peace of mind, a last resort, something that's better to have and not need than to need and not have. > who is it that you don't trust and that you need a weapon for 'effective defense'? Have you ever read about the terrible things people do to eachothers? Or the barbarism of human history?
    - teakettle42 5y ago
      > Have you ever read about the terrible things people do to eachothers? Or the barbarism of human history? We live in a tiny window of prosperity and safety. WWII was only 76 years ago. Syria is a short plane ride away. Afghanistan is a contemporary product of our own hubris. Yet people still assume, for reasons that I genuinely cannot fathom, that this tiny window of privilege that we're lucky enough to inhabit will last indefinitely, and never backslide.
    - Jedd 5y ago
      Hang on. You came in with: > It's usually the opposite sentiment for gun owners- I trust my fellow citizens with arms. And now: > Have you ever read about the terrible things people do to each others? Or the barbarism of human history? Those positions aren't precisely orthogonal, but they certainly have some conflicting sentiment behind them. As to owning a handgun for private use for: > Any living threat, which could be a much much larger attacker or mob of attackers. ... from a naive perspective (I've never been in that situation, thankfully) it feels like any advantage I may have, via agility, negotiation, ability to out-run, etc, would be negated if everyone involved had a handgun. Certainly if everyone in that scenario is armed, there's no clear advantage to me to be armed. (I concur that if the other party(ies) were not armed, and I was, then that's advantageous to me. And if they were armed, and I was not, well that's also very bad for me. But that's not the likely scenario in a heavily gun-equipped scenario.) Anyway, I'm sure you've gone through all this before, with many people smarter / more informed than me. Precisely why many Americans are convinced gun ownership is an answer to something, despite all the statistical evidence, I'm just not likely to ever understand. Thank you for your patience with my questions.
- jollybean 5y ago
  " They provide you with a reasonably effective defense" No, they don't at all. Just the opposite actually. I get the 'Guns to defend against Tyranny' argument, that's kind of reasonable. But as 'personal defence' they don't work nearly as well as having strong gun regulations which keep guns out of the hands of the morons. It's much safer walking down the street in Canada where you can't legally carry a gun, because there are just so few guns the baddies have a harder time getting them, and use them much less. I do think we ought to be more concerned about authoritarian creep ... but guns are probably not the best solution to that either, as if it gets to that level it's very, very bad. Legislative, civic reform, voting, literacy etc. would be more helpful there.
  - spacephysics 5y ago
    But your premise rests on the trust that criminals won’t obtain guns illegally if more restrictions are created. On mobile, so don’t have the numbers, but I recall a large amount of gun crime is done by illegally obtained firearms.
    - megablast 5y ago
      No, it rely on the fact it’s harder for criminals to get guns if it’s harder for everyone.
    - jollybean 5y ago
      It doesn't rest on the premise that bad guys won't obtain guns illegally ... because they for sure will and that's the case everywhere. Supply and Demand applies to the Black Market as much as it does to legal markets. Again Japan is a great example: there are pretty much no guns allowed, anywhere, and guess what? There is almost zero gun crime. There's no doubt that anyone with basic resources and need could obtain a gun if they really put their minds to it, but that's part of Supply and Demand, it's just not worth the extended effort in most cases. But if you have them lying around, with easy access, and your whole crew has them, and your rival gang is also easily and well armed, well, then you have a problem. The argument that guns are good for personal defence just does not add up, it's just irrational at face value that everyone running around with guns (even legal ones) creates safer conditions. The only place they would be useful is in highly dangerous situations, ironically made dangerous at least in part because historically lax gun regulations. If I lived in Mexico, I may very well own a gun, but in Maine, it would be basically pointless for the purposes of 'self defence' there. Switzerland has high gun ownership, but they do not really have pistols and they do not carry them for self defence. Mexico has strict gun laws, but they are not enforced, so the laws don't have much of an effect. USA -> Can/Aus -> UK/Europe -> Japan form a fairly straight forward examples of ever stricter gun control leading to considerably less gun crime. Note that some of those places have elevated levels of physical assaults, and knife attacks, but that leads to considerably fewer injuries and fatalities. The 'stand against tyranny' argument notwithstanding, I think there's some legitimacy there, but that's another can of worms.
- mbrodersen 5y ago
  Honest question: would you trust your fellow citizens to have access to nuclear weapons as well?
d12345m 5y ago
Welp, I guess it’s time to finally give the Culture series a go.
- LookOutItsABot 5y ago
  Always a good idea.
teakettle42 5y ago
> I don't understand the pride bit. I can't speak to the parent, but I take pride in self-reliance, and taking responsibility for securing and defending the well-being of myself, my family, neighbors, and community. I also am a volunteer, state-certified structure firefighter, and take pride in that for the exact same reason. You might find it interesting that, as part of our classroom instruction, my structure firefighting class was asked how many of us owned guns — all of us raised a hand. This mirrors my experience in the broader fire service. > Perhaps I could interest you in some Iain M Banks (taken from Excession). I love Iain M Banks' Culture series, but they live within a utopian, post-scarcity benevolent dictatorship managed by AIs with powers verging on that of a demigod. We most certainly do not. As for the quote? Any tool can only be fully appreciated within the context of its intended purpose, and the effects that it can produce in the world around us. The value of a gun as a tool is a tragedy, but the tragedy isn't the gun, but the necessity for one, and it's a tragedy inherent in our mortal existence.
- yesenadam 5y ago
  > the tragedy isn't the gun, but the necessity for one, and it's a tragedy inherent in our mortal existence. Well, they're sure not necessary here in Australia. I don't think I've ever met someone who owns one, certainly no-one has ever mentioned owning a gun to me. It's just not a thing. Seems to be just "a tragedy inherent" in the USA. I was watching every day, and supporting, the George Floyd protests, and after a while those in Seattle and Portland.. until Raz got machine guns from his car and starting handing them out. WTF?! That was the plan?! I switched off, disgusted. That suddenly all seemed insane. Like it does hearing people from the US on HN talking about guns. It just sounds crazy. I read on HN someone from the US saying Australians wouldn't be under lockdown if only we had guns etc. It just sounds insane, disturbing even reading that. What am I gonna do with a gun?! But maybe, when everyone else has a gun, you feel you need for one too. Just know that it's not like that in every country. Although if my country had spent most of the last 120 years invading other countries, subverting their politics, stealing their wealth, like the US has, I'd have urges to defend myself from it with a gun, too, maybe, I don't know. It's weird though. US violence has been focused outwards, on other countries, yet to hear people from the US, they never heard about that, don't feel involved or responsible, yet are obsessed with the possibility of US government violence happening to them one day. I don't claim to understand the situation, just I'm very glad not to live in a country where everyone has a gun. OK, now I will stop reading gun stories/comments on HN. Good luck!
smegger001 5y ago
As another gun owner its not necessarily people that my gun can defend me and my family from. I grew up living out side of town out in the country. I have in my yard seen bear, cougar, coyotes and while hiking/camping/fishing also come across wolves and various snakes. Around age 12 I started carrying a .22 caliber pistol loaded with snake shot when fishing in case of rattle snake.
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
  Obviously anecdata, but on point: https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/25/us/feral-hog-death-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/25/us/feral-hog-death-trnd/index... Woman in Texas was killed by feral hogs.
KorematsuFredt 5y ago
> It seems like a regrettable situation where your distrust of your fellow citizens It is other way around. People who want gun bans do not trust the fellow citizens and hence want to restrict their freedom of owning firearms. Gun lovers on other hand are some of the nicest people around, we want everyone women, lgbtq, blacks, whites, asians and everyone to own firearms and we trust them to be responsible for it. Pride part : 1. I come from a long line of fighters. Weapons are part of our lifestyle and no government or law can stop my family from being armed. (Though we will always obey law). 2. Guns are a symbol of individual freedom. There is an inherent responsibility to protect one and their private property and community. I will not hesitate to use violence to fight a tyranny. Australia is practically under house arrest today and we see articles like : https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/coronavirus/nsw-covid-updates-funeral-real-estate-restrictions-to-ease/live-coverage/e5594b53fb174ac231ac2051bbd3ce30 https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/coronavirus/nsw-covid-upda...

by Jedd 5y ago

nverno 5y ago

> It seems like a regrettable situation where your distrust of your fellow citizens is so strong that you are comforted by the ability to kill them with minimal effort. It's usually the opposite sentiment for gun owners- I trust my fellow citizens with arms. Guns are seen as an integral part of self-reliance by many. They provide you with a reasonably effective defense. One way to significantly erode individual's/citizen's power, and in turn give power to government, is take away their ability to defend themselves. People worry that as government becomes more powerful and citizens more reliant there is greater likelihood of oppressive government, in other words disarming populace is step down a slippery slope

Jedd 5y ago
> Guns are seen as an integral part of self-reliance by many. For context, can you clarify if the many you're referring to there are some fellow USA citizens? If so, I'll note that USA is < 5% of global population, and also note a very fresh Pew paper[0] which indicated more than half of that population was keen on stricter gun controls. So 'many' has some caveats around it. > They provide you with a reasonably effective defense. Against what? Other people with guns, or other people with feebler weapons? If it's the former, then we're back to a basic escalation problem, and it's what most other western nation states have avoided falling prey to by, simply, not playing that game. If you trust your fellow citizens with arms - who is it that you don't trust and that you need a weapon for 'effective defense'? As to: > ... in other words disarming populace is step down a slippery slope. I really can't speak to what it looks like from within the borders of the USA, but from outside, it feels that the USA is well down that slippery slope (of eroded freedoms, and citizenry exploitation) compared to many other democratic nations - so guns in the hands of private citizens don't appear to be a panacea. [0] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/09/13/key-facts-about-americans-and-guns/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/09/13/key-facts-a...
- nverno 5y ago
  Yea I'm referring to fellow US citizens (I am also an Australian citizen, but the Aussie half of my family could care less about guns). I grew up rural in US and now live in the city. It may as well be two different countries with respect to views on gun ownership, so nationwide polls won't capture any of the variation (also state to state is massive difference). > Against what? Other people with guns, or other people with feebler weapons? Any living threat, which could be a much much larger attacker or mob of attackers. Consider the rattlesnake, it's the same thing- a great deterrent. It's peace of mind, a last resort, something that's better to have and not need than to need and not have. > who is it that you don't trust and that you need a weapon for 'effective defense'? Have you ever read about the terrible things people do to eachothers? Or the barbarism of human history?
  - teakettle42 5y ago
    > Have you ever read about the terrible things people do to eachothers? Or the barbarism of human history? We live in a tiny window of prosperity and safety. WWII was only 76 years ago. Syria is a short plane ride away. Afghanistan is a contemporary product of our own hubris. Yet people still assume, for reasons that I genuinely cannot fathom, that this tiny window of privilege that we're lucky enough to inhabit will last indefinitely, and never backslide.
  - Jedd 5y ago
    Hang on. You came in with: > It's usually the opposite sentiment for gun owners- I trust my fellow citizens with arms. And now: > Have you ever read about the terrible things people do to each others? Or the barbarism of human history? Those positions aren't precisely orthogonal, but they certainly have some conflicting sentiment behind them. As to owning a handgun for private use for: > Any living threat, which could be a much much larger attacker or mob of attackers. ... from a naive perspective (I've never been in that situation, thankfully) it feels like any advantage I may have, via agility, negotiation, ability to out-run, etc, would be negated if everyone involved had a handgun. Certainly if everyone in that scenario is armed, there's no clear advantage to me to be armed. (I concur that if the other party(ies) were not armed, and I was, then that's advantageous to me. And if they were armed, and I was not, well that's also very bad for me. But that's not the likely scenario in a heavily gun-equipped scenario.) Anyway, I'm sure you've gone through all this before, with many people smarter / more informed than me. Precisely why many Americans are convinced gun ownership is an answer to something, despite all the statistical evidence, I'm just not likely to ever understand. Thank you for your patience with my questions.
jollybean 5y ago
" They provide you with a reasonably effective defense" No, they don't at all. Just the opposite actually. I get the 'Guns to defend against Tyranny' argument, that's kind of reasonable. But as 'personal defence' they don't work nearly as well as having strong gun regulations which keep guns out of the hands of the morons. It's much safer walking down the street in Canada where you can't legally carry a gun, because there are just so few guns the baddies have a harder time getting them, and use them much less. I do think we ought to be more concerned about authoritarian creep ... but guns are probably not the best solution to that either, as if it gets to that level it's very, very bad. Legislative, civic reform, voting, literacy etc. would be more helpful there.
- spacephysics 5y ago
  But your premise rests on the trust that criminals won’t obtain guns illegally if more restrictions are created. On mobile, so don’t have the numbers, but I recall a large amount of gun crime is done by illegally obtained firearms.
  - megablast 5y ago
    No, it rely on the fact it’s harder for criminals to get guns if it’s harder for everyone.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    It doesn't rest on the premise that bad guys won't obtain guns illegally ... because they for sure will and that's the case everywhere. Supply and Demand applies to the Black Market as much as it does to legal markets. Again Japan is a great example: there are pretty much no guns allowed, anywhere, and guess what? There is almost zero gun crime. There's no doubt that anyone with basic resources and need could obtain a gun if they really put their minds to it, but that's part of Supply and Demand, it's just not worth the extended effort in most cases. But if you have them lying around, with easy access, and your whole crew has them, and your rival gang is also easily and well armed, well, then you have a problem. The argument that guns are good for personal defence just does not add up, it's just irrational at face value that everyone running around with guns (even legal ones) creates safer conditions. The only place they would be useful is in highly dangerous situations, ironically made dangerous at least in part because historically lax gun regulations. If I lived in Mexico, I may very well own a gun, but in Maine, it would be basically pointless for the purposes of 'self defence' there. Switzerland has high gun ownership, but they do not really have pistols and they do not carry them for self defence. Mexico has strict gun laws, but they are not enforced, so the laws don't have much of an effect. USA -> Can/Aus -> UK/Europe -> Japan form a fairly straight forward examples of ever stricter gun control leading to considerably less gun crime. Note that some of those places have elevated levels of physical assaults, and knife attacks, but that leads to considerably fewer injuries and fatalities. The 'stand against tyranny' argument notwithstanding, I think there's some legitimacy there, but that's another can of worms.
mbrodersen 5y ago
Honest question: would you trust your fellow citizens to have access to nuclear weapons as well?

d12345m 5y ago

Welp, I guess it’s time to finally give the Culture series a go.

LookOutItsABot 5y ago
Always a good idea.

teakettle42 5y ago

> I don't understand the pride bit. I can't speak to the parent, but I take pride in self-reliance, and taking responsibility for securing and defending the well-being of myself, my family, neighbors, and community. I also am a volunteer, state-certified structure firefighter, and take pride in that for the exact same reason. You might find it interesting that, as part of our classroom instruction, my structure firefighting class was asked how many of us owned guns — all of us raised a hand. This mirrors my experience in the broader fire service. > Perhaps I could interest you in some Iain M Banks (taken from Excession). I love Iain M Banks' Culture series, but they live within a utopian, post-scarcity benevolent dictatorship managed by AIs with powers verging on that of a demigod. We most certainly do not. As for the quote? Any tool can only be fully appreciated within the context of its intended purpose, and the effects that it can produce in the world around us. The value of a gun as a tool is a tragedy, but the tragedy isn't the gun, but the necessity for one, and it's a tragedy inherent in our mortal existence.

yesenadam 5y ago
> the tragedy isn't the gun, but the necessity for one, and it's a tragedy inherent in our mortal existence. Well, they're sure not necessary here in Australia. I don't think I've ever met someone who owns one, certainly no-one has ever mentioned owning a gun to me. It's just not a thing. Seems to be just "a tragedy inherent" in the USA. I was watching every day, and supporting, the George Floyd protests, and after a while those in Seattle and Portland.. until Raz got machine guns from his car and starting handing them out. WTF?! That was the plan?! I switched off, disgusted. That suddenly all seemed insane. Like it does hearing people from the US on HN talking about guns. It just sounds crazy. I read on HN someone from the US saying Australians wouldn't be under lockdown if only we had guns etc. It just sounds insane, disturbing even reading that. What am I gonna do with a gun?! But maybe, when everyone else has a gun, you feel you need for one too. Just know that it's not like that in every country. Although if my country had spent most of the last 120 years invading other countries, subverting their politics, stealing their wealth, like the US has, I'd have urges to defend myself from it with a gun, too, maybe, I don't know. It's weird though. US violence has been focused outwards, on other countries, yet to hear people from the US, they never heard about that, don't feel involved or responsible, yet are obsessed with the possibility of US government violence happening to them one day. I don't claim to understand the situation, just I'm very glad not to live in a country where everyone has a gun. OK, now I will stop reading gun stories/comments on HN. Good luck!

smegger001 5y ago

As another gun owner its not necessarily people that my gun can defend me and my family from. I grew up living out side of town out in the country. I have in my yard seen bear, cougar, coyotes and while hiking/camping/fishing also come across wolves and various snakes. Around age 12 I started carrying a .22 caliber pistol loaded with snake shot when fishing in case of rattle snake.

NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
Obviously anecdata, but on point: https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/25/us/feral-hog-death-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/25/us/feral-hog-death-trnd/index... Woman in Texas was killed by feral hogs.

KorematsuFredt 5y ago

> It seems like a regrettable situation where your distrust of your fellow citizens It is other way around. People who want gun bans do not trust the fellow citizens and hence want to restrict their freedom of owning firearms. Gun lovers on other hand are some of the nicest people around, we want everyone women, lgbtq, blacks, whites, asians and everyone to own firearms and we trust them to be responsible for it. Pride part : 1. I come from a long line of fighters. Weapons are part of our lifestyle and no government or law can stop my family from being armed. (Though we will always obey law). 2. Guns are a symbol of individual freedom. There is an inherent responsibility to protect one and their private property and community. I will not hesitate to use violence to fight a tyranny. Australia is practically under house arrest today and we see articles like : https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/coronavirus/nsw-covid-updates-funeral-real-estate-restrictions-to-ease/live-coverage/e5594b53fb174ac231ac2051bbd3ce30 https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/coronavirus/nsw-covid-upda...