4 ms·

Well, this is kinda like complimentary condiments or whatever. Technically you are allowed to abuse it to the wazoo, but in practice it just means "Take a reaso

by lhorie 5y ago

Well, this is kinda like complimentary condiments or whatever. Technically you are allowed to abuse it to the wazoo, but in practice it just means "Take a reasonable amount, we're not stingy". There obviously is an unspoken "we're all grown ups here" type of social contract in these sorts of things. Abusing it is going to come at the cost of the commons, and in the GP's case it did cost them the perk, so being angry at the abuser seems justified. One of my co-workers a few years ago decided to go to Japan for 3 months, but that didn't fly with my company and it ended up being mostly an unpaid sabbatical (despite the unlimited PTO policy). 3 months later, the guy extended his stay and let us know he wasn't coming back. There were no hard rules anywhere in sight, but the way this played out seems perfectly reasonable to me.

sneak 5y ago
> There obviously is an unspoken "we're all grown ups here" type of social contract in these sorts of things. It's absolutely not grown-up behavior to remove terms from an explicit business contract (employment agreement) and move them to an implicit, unwritten "I know it when I see it" social contract. Obviously there's some actual limit that your platonic grownup has in mind, between 2 weeks and 40 weeks of PTO per year. Just write it down.
ryandrake 5y ago
Some people are just missing that part of their development that helps them to intuitively grasp what counts as abuse when there are no clear written rules. You can't just ask them to be reasonable. I worked for a company that ordered free dinner for folks who stayed late. No limit to what you can eat, but if you're feeling a little hungry, grab a slice of pizza! Well, sure enough a few people ruined it for everyone by taking armfuls of pizza home with them, enough to feed 10 people. I'm talking multiple whole pizza pies, boxes and all, straight to their cars. "It was for employees, and there were no written restrictions" was the justification. So, that perk ended.
- tikhonj 5y ago
  It's interesting how inconsistent and asymmetric these intuitive limits seem to be. Pushing employees to work extra hours, easily $X000 in time? Perfectly acceptable. Abusive JIRA-powered micromanagement? That's just how it is. But $60 worth of pizza!? How could a reasonable person possible justify that?
- CydeWeys 5y ago
  > Some people are just missing that part of their development that helps them to intuitively grasp what counts as abuse when there are no clear written rules. I think the guy who quit after two months' leave knew perfectly well it was abuse; he just didn't care. Or maybe he felt slighted by the company in some way (unfair resolution of a conflict, promotion denied, underpaid, whatever) and this was his way of getting even with them.
  - dragonsky67 5y ago
    How can it be abuse? If 2 months leave is part of package then surely it's up to them how they use it. You wouldn't criticize them for using all the money they get paid would you?
    - barsonme 5y ago
      The problem isn’t taking two months off. It’s taking a large chunk of time off, then immediately quitting. That means the team was down an engineer for basically an entire quarter, without notice. That wrecks schedules and causes headaches for your coworkers who now have to figure out how to make up for the lost time or figure out what work to cut from the schedule.
      - dorgo 5y ago
        So it is an HR problem. They need to extend the cancelation periods in contracts..
        barsonme 5y ago
        No, HR doesn’t schedule work or features. It’s practically impossible to pad timelines for the case where an engineer decides to effectively pad their two weeks notice by an additional six weeks except for large companies like Google.
- dragonsky67 5y ago
  I would find not having defined benefits extremely uncomfortable. Saying that you have unlimited paid leave when that is obviously untrue and leaves the policy open for abuse by both employee and employer. I'm sure the example stating that less leave was taken when it was "unlimited" was because people understood that there were limits but didn't know what the limit was and didn't want to trigger management. Once things are defined, of course people will think that it's ok to take the maximum leave allowed.
  - fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
    Consider that your employment contract doesn’t even specify how much work you will get done. Isn’t that a much more extreme degree of freedom than number of days of PTO? It’s between you and your manager to figure out what your expected amount of output is. Given that, isn’t PTO just one of many factors in that ongoing negotiation?
- antifa 5y ago
  > Some people are just missing that part of their development that helps them to intuitively grasp what counts as abuse when there are no clear written rules. 2 months is clearly abuse, but I'm worried my CEO or HR will have a far less generous definition of abuse. I'm already reading a thread about 4-6 week vacations where I get at most 2 weeks.
SilasX 5y ago
Yes, xkcd had a great comic on the toxic attitude of abusing the ambiguity of a gentlemen's agreement: https://xkcd.com/1499/ https://xkcd.com/1499/
jokethrowaway 5y ago
It's not, because people won't easily benefit from taking unlimited condiments, while they would easily benefit from real unlimited holidays. Holidays should come with some limits, eg. no more than X weeks per year, like it was in the past. I get it, the government made a stupid rule (forcing PTO accrual in the contract between employer and employee) and companies were creative enough to find a solution to bypass that rule and made it sound attractive on a job ad. In an ideal world we would just have an explicit upfront amount and no government interference.
- lhorie 5y ago
  > Holidays should come with some limits, eg. no more than X weeks per year, like it was in the past That's anchoring bias. Unlimited does have some nice properties (e.g. very generous allowances in many cases, and the possibility of spending unaccrued time, for example) If we're in talking about ideals, I'd just ask for people to be more transparent about what the actual dynamics are: if taking 2 months vacation where everyone else takes 1 week affects metrics tied to promos, then say that upfront so people can make a conscious decision about whether signing up for asshat culture is worth the brand prestige or career trajectory potential or whatever it is that people value.
- ryan_lane 5y ago
  In a world without "government interference" you wouldn't have leave, you'd work every day of the week, and you'd work 12+ hours a day. Being paid out leave, and having leave accrued isn't a stupid rule. It's a law that's made in reaction to companies writing an upfront amount of leave into contracts, and never allowing their employees to take that leave. When you side with no regulation, you side with abusive employers, not for "common sense winning out". People will abuse you as much as they're legally allowed to.
  - opo 5y ago
    >In a world without "government interference" you wouldn't have leave, you'd work every day of the week, and you'd work 12+ hours a day. If this were true, none of us would be earning more than the minimum wage.

by lhorie 5y ago

sneak 5y ago

> There obviously is an unspoken "we're all grown ups here" type of social contract in these sorts of things. It's absolutely not grown-up behavior to remove terms from an explicit business contract (employment agreement) and move them to an implicit, unwritten "I know it when I see it" social contract. Obviously there's some actual limit that your platonic grownup has in mind, between 2 weeks and 40 weeks of PTO per year. Just write it down.

ryandrake 5y ago

Some people are just missing that part of their development that helps them to intuitively grasp what counts as abuse when there are no clear written rules. You can't just ask them to be reasonable. I worked for a company that ordered free dinner for folks who stayed late. No limit to what you can eat, but if you're feeling a little hungry, grab a slice of pizza! Well, sure enough a few people ruined it for everyone by taking armfuls of pizza home with them, enough to feed 10 people. I'm talking multiple whole pizza pies, boxes and all, straight to their cars. "It was for employees, and there were no written restrictions" was the justification. So, that perk ended.

tikhonj 5y ago
It's interesting how inconsistent and asymmetric these intuitive limits seem to be. Pushing employees to work extra hours, easily $X000 in time? Perfectly acceptable. Abusive JIRA-powered micromanagement? That's just how it is. But $60 worth of pizza!? How could a reasonable person possible justify that?
CydeWeys 5y ago
> Some people are just missing that part of their development that helps them to intuitively grasp what counts as abuse when there are no clear written rules. I think the guy who quit after two months' leave knew perfectly well it was abuse; he just didn't care. Or maybe he felt slighted by the company in some way (unfair resolution of a conflict, promotion denied, underpaid, whatever) and this was his way of getting even with them.
- dragonsky67 5y ago
  How can it be abuse? If 2 months leave is part of package then surely it's up to them how they use it. You wouldn't criticize them for using all the money they get paid would you?
  - barsonme 5y ago
    The problem isn’t taking two months off. It’s taking a large chunk of time off, then immediately quitting. That means the team was down an engineer for basically an entire quarter, without notice. That wrecks schedules and causes headaches for your coworkers who now have to figure out how to make up for the lost time or figure out what work to cut from the schedule.
    - dorgo 5y ago
      So it is an HR problem. They need to extend the cancelation periods in contracts..
      - barsonme 5y ago
        No, HR doesn’t schedule work or features. It’s practically impossible to pad timelines for the case where an engineer decides to effectively pad their two weeks notice by an additional six weeks except for large companies like Google.
dragonsky67 5y ago
I would find not having defined benefits extremely uncomfortable. Saying that you have unlimited paid leave when that is obviously untrue and leaves the policy open for abuse by both employee and employer. I'm sure the example stating that less leave was taken when it was "unlimited" was because people understood that there were limits but didn't know what the limit was and didn't want to trigger management. Once things are defined, of course people will think that it's ok to take the maximum leave allowed.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
  Consider that your employment contract doesn’t even specify how much work you will get done. Isn’t that a much more extreme degree of freedom than number of days of PTO? It’s between you and your manager to figure out what your expected amount of output is. Given that, isn’t PTO just one of many factors in that ongoing negotiation?
antifa 5y ago
> Some people are just missing that part of their development that helps them to intuitively grasp what counts as abuse when there are no clear written rules. 2 months is clearly abuse, but I'm worried my CEO or HR will have a far less generous definition of abuse. I'm already reading a thread about 4-6 week vacations where I get at most 2 weeks.

SilasX 5y ago

Yes, xkcd had a great comic on the toxic attitude of abusing the ambiguity of a gentlemen's agreement: https://xkcd.com/1499/ https://xkcd.com/1499/

jokethrowaway 5y ago

It's not, because people won't easily benefit from taking unlimited condiments, while they would easily benefit from real unlimited holidays. Holidays should come with some limits, eg. no more than X weeks per year, like it was in the past. I get it, the government made a stupid rule (forcing PTO accrual in the contract between employer and employee) and companies were creative enough to find a solution to bypass that rule and made it sound attractive on a job ad. In an ideal world we would just have an explicit upfront amount and no government interference.

lhorie 5y ago
> Holidays should come with some limits, eg. no more than X weeks per year, like it was in the past That's anchoring bias. Unlimited does have some nice properties (e.g. very generous allowances in many cases, and the possibility of spending unaccrued time, for example) If we're in talking about ideals, I'd just ask for people to be more transparent about what the actual dynamics are: if taking 2 months vacation where everyone else takes 1 week affects metrics tied to promos, then say that upfront so people can make a conscious decision about whether signing up for asshat culture is worth the brand prestige or career trajectory potential or whatever it is that people value.
ryan_lane 5y ago
In a world without "government interference" you wouldn't have leave, you'd work every day of the week, and you'd work 12+ hours a day. Being paid out leave, and having leave accrued isn't a stupid rule. It's a law that's made in reaction to companies writing an upfront amount of leave into contracts, and never allowing their employees to take that leave. When you side with no regulation, you side with abusive employers, not for "common sense winning out". People will abuse you as much as they're legally allowed to.
- opo 5y ago
  >In a world without "government interference" you wouldn't have leave, you'd work every day of the week, and you'd work 12+ hours a day. If this were true, none of us would be earning more than the minimum wage.