6 ms·

Yes, personally I would much rather put my trust in my neighboring citizens than the government. I trust myself and other citizens to stand up for our rights mo

by nverno 5y ago

Yes, personally I would much rather put my trust in my neighboring citizens than the government. I trust myself and other citizens to stand up for our rights more than I trust the government to protect them. So, I'd rather citizens be armed than the government. IIRC Switzerland has an interesting citizen militia/gun ownership situation as well.

adamredwoods 5y ago
Sadly, our neighborhood thinks everyone is a potential criminal and hangs signs around saying "I don't call 911" with a picture of a gun. This is not inviting to other neighbors, and not a way to build trust with one another.
- paisawalla 5y ago
  I grew up in an area where people have these signs and bumper stickers, and never had a problem socializing. I saw no evidence that people couldn't trust their neighbors or community. I've seen these in rural and urban places as well, and still haven't seen any issue like what you're suggesting. What's the problem supposed to be?
  - adamredwoods 5y ago
    How do those signs introduce trust by advertising violence? Furthermore, I do not want my children playing with other families who have guns inside the household. I don't see it as safe. Why hang a sign that insinuates "I may shoot you", unless that person really means it?
    - paisawalla 5y ago
      The signs are clearly intended for would-be criminals, that is the well understood meaning of a phrase like "we don't call 911" or "this house protected by Smith and Wesson". Nobody who lives next to such a house thinks these signs describe them or are meant for them at all, because they aren't criminals. The "I may shoot you" interpretation never occurs to them, because they don't think "I may rob this house" either. You make a fundamental mistake by thinking that the sign has any effect on how much I trust my neighbors. Unless it's a NAMBLA flag, I am not going to let a bumper sticker or slogan override my personal experience of a person. Most people are like this.
      - adamredwoods 5y ago
        The problem is not specifically criminals, but how people react to others under stress, and how they view guns in their lives. Do they turn to guns quickly, or do they find peaceful solutions? The posted signs are one way to judge, and I really do hope most people are peaceful, even though they portray violence. My family's safety could depend on their true nature. An example of someone's recent true nature: >> A Washington man was arrested after officials said he shot and killed a neighbor for revving his engine too loudly. https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/state/washington/article252178588.html https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/state/washington/article...
        ctdonath 5y ago
        Those familiar with guns know their place, and are (on the whole) actually much less likely to harm others without cause - precisely because they are familiar with the likely harm. One cherry-picked anecdote is insufficient. A million or so crimes, murders included, are deterred/stopped every year - most without firing a shot.
        hytdstd 5y ago
        > A million or so crimes, murders included, are deterred/stopped every year - most without firing a shot. The data don't really suggest that this is the case. Compared to other western countries, America has the same rate of crime. The difference is, of course, that criminal activity is more likely to involve firearms and thus death.
      - hytdstd 5y ago
        >Unless it's a NAMBLA flag, I am not going to let a bumper sticker or slogan override my personal experience of a person. Most people are like this. If you have lots of personal experiences with a person, that's great. But many people don't have real relationships with their neighbors. Bumper stickers and slogans absolutely will impact such relations, they make first impressions. I certainly wouldn't trust almost-strangers with tons of flat-earth stuff to tutor my kids, would you?
    - betwixthewires 5y ago
      > Furthermore, I do not want my children playing with other families who have guns inside the household. I don't see it as safe. So we get to the crux of it. It's not the signs that prevent you from socializing with your community. On to the signs. "Posted, no trespassing" is an indication that bad things may happen if you jump a fence. Maybe all it is is getting arrested and charges pressed. Do signs like that make you feel unsafe? Signs like that are intended to deter the wrong kind of people, that is, those who would harm you. They have the added side effect of bringing together like minded people, and deterring socialization from people with a problem with it.
      - travisporter 5y ago
        The elephant in the room is race.
        HideousKojima 5y ago
        I'm just as ready and willing to shoot the white meth-head around the block if he breaks in as I am a black crack-head who breaks in.
      - lmm 5y ago
        > On to the signs. "Posted, no trespassing" is an indication that bad things may happen if you jump a fence. Maybe all it is is getting arrested and charges pressed. Do signs like that make you feel unsafe? No. Those suggest a normal, decent, measured response, rather than a spirit of escalation. A sign like "talk shit, get hit" would worry me though.
    - ctdonath 5y ago
      Because the neighbors know that violence will only be directed against those causing harm in the neighborhood, restoring peace should criminal activity cross a line, and deterring criminal activity by assuring perpetrators will not benefit from their vile actions. I know other families who have guns are willing & able to protect my children. They've thought about such situations, and have means to protect the innocent.
- HideousKojima 5y ago
  Seeing neighbors with signs like that make me feel more welcome, not less.
bananabreakfast 5y ago
Yes, everyone in Switzerland has a gun but you left out a very important detail: ammo is illegal to own.
smoe 5y ago
Switzerlands guns culture and history is very different. Quite the opposite actually. Civilians were armed, required to own guns for a long time, so local lords and later governments could send them to conflicts quicker. The argument that you need guns for personal defense, against the government or as part of self-reliance is extremely rare. Also legally there are not many cases where their use would be considered justified self-defense by a court. There has been some "americanization" in recent years with people copying NRA arguments but not a prevalent mindset anywhere in the country. The reasons why there are some many guns around are simply because people often take (or had to in the past) the military service riffle home and because shooting is a fairly popular sport. Not because of a perceived need of needing it for defending oneself or family.

by nverno 5y ago

adamredwoods 5y ago

Sadly, our neighborhood thinks everyone is a potential criminal and hangs signs around saying "I don't call 911" with a picture of a gun. This is not inviting to other neighbors, and not a way to build trust with one another.

paisawalla 5y ago
I grew up in an area where people have these signs and bumper stickers, and never had a problem socializing. I saw no evidence that people couldn't trust their neighbors or community. I've seen these in rural and urban places as well, and still haven't seen any issue like what you're suggesting. What's the problem supposed to be?
- adamredwoods 5y ago
  How do those signs introduce trust by advertising violence? Furthermore, I do not want my children playing with other families who have guns inside the household. I don't see it as safe. Why hang a sign that insinuates "I may shoot you", unless that person really means it?
  - paisawalla 5y ago
    The signs are clearly intended for would-be criminals, that is the well understood meaning of a phrase like "we don't call 911" or "this house protected by Smith and Wesson". Nobody who lives next to such a house thinks these signs describe them or are meant for them at all, because they aren't criminals. The "I may shoot you" interpretation never occurs to them, because they don't think "I may rob this house" either. You make a fundamental mistake by thinking that the sign has any effect on how much I trust my neighbors. Unless it's a NAMBLA flag, I am not going to let a bumper sticker or slogan override my personal experience of a person. Most people are like this.
    - adamredwoods 5y ago
      The problem is not specifically criminals, but how people react to others under stress, and how they view guns in their lives. Do they turn to guns quickly, or do they find peaceful solutions? The posted signs are one way to judge, and I really do hope most people are peaceful, even though they portray violence. My family's safety could depend on their true nature. An example of someone's recent true nature: >> A Washington man was arrested after officials said he shot and killed a neighbor for revving his engine too loudly. https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/state/washington/article252178588.html https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/state/washington/article...
      - ctdonath 5y ago
        Those familiar with guns know their place, and are (on the whole) actually much less likely to harm others without cause - precisely because they are familiar with the likely harm. One cherry-picked anecdote is insufficient. A million or so crimes, murders included, are deterred/stopped every year - most without firing a shot.
        hytdstd 5y ago
        > A million or so crimes, murders included, are deterred/stopped every year - most without firing a shot. The data don't really suggest that this is the case. Compared to other western countries, America has the same rate of crime. The difference is, of course, that criminal activity is more likely to involve firearms and thus death.
    - hytdstd 5y ago
      >Unless it's a NAMBLA flag, I am not going to let a bumper sticker or slogan override my personal experience of a person. Most people are like this. If you have lots of personal experiences with a person, that's great. But many people don't have real relationships with their neighbors. Bumper stickers and slogans absolutely will impact such relations, they make first impressions. I certainly wouldn't trust almost-strangers with tons of flat-earth stuff to tutor my kids, would you?
  - betwixthewires 5y ago
    > Furthermore, I do not want my children playing with other families who have guns inside the household. I don't see it as safe. So we get to the crux of it. It's not the signs that prevent you from socializing with your community. On to the signs. "Posted, no trespassing" is an indication that bad things may happen if you jump a fence. Maybe all it is is getting arrested and charges pressed. Do signs like that make you feel unsafe? Signs like that are intended to deter the wrong kind of people, that is, those who would harm you. They have the added side effect of bringing together like minded people, and deterring socialization from people with a problem with it.
    - travisporter 5y ago
      The elephant in the room is race.
      - HideousKojima 5y ago
        I'm just as ready and willing to shoot the white meth-head around the block if he breaks in as I am a black crack-head who breaks in.
    - lmm 5y ago
      > On to the signs. "Posted, no trespassing" is an indication that bad things may happen if you jump a fence. Maybe all it is is getting arrested and charges pressed. Do signs like that make you feel unsafe? No. Those suggest a normal, decent, measured response, rather than a spirit of escalation. A sign like "talk shit, get hit" would worry me though.
  - ctdonath 5y ago
    Because the neighbors know that violence will only be directed against those causing harm in the neighborhood, restoring peace should criminal activity cross a line, and deterring criminal activity by assuring perpetrators will not benefit from their vile actions. I know other families who have guns are willing & able to protect my children. They've thought about such situations, and have means to protect the innocent.
HideousKojima 5y ago
Seeing neighbors with signs like that make me feel more welcome, not less.

bananabreakfast 5y ago

Yes, everyone in Switzerland has a gun but you left out a very important detail: ammo is illegal to own.

smoe 5y ago

Switzerlands guns culture and history is very different. Quite the opposite actually. Civilians were armed, required to own guns for a long time, so local lords and later governments could send them to conflicts quicker. The argument that you need guns for personal defense, against the government or as part of self-reliance is extremely rare. Also legally there are not many cases where their use would be considered justified self-defense by a court. There has been some "americanization" in recent years with people copying NRA arguments but not a prevalent mindset anywhere in the country. The reasons why there are some many guns around are simply because people often take (or had to in the past) the military service riffle home and because shooting is a fairly popular sport. Not because of a perceived need of needing it for defending oneself or family.