8 ms·

I have a very simple litmus test. In how many countries can you openly (with lots of publicity) organize "Draw a Muhammad" or "Burn the bible" events.

rkk3 5y ago
Along that line of thinking it's now illegal to burn the US flag.
- nverno 5y ago
  No, it is legal to burn the US flag assuming it's your flag (in the United States)
  - rkk3 5y ago
    Sort of, there are still laws against it in almost every state. https://apnews.com/article/803cf0e75e924afbbbe9c77f15517da5 https://apnews.com/article/803cf0e75e924afbbbe9c77f15517da5
    - nverno 5y ago
      Wow, it is infuriating that people are still getting harassed for that. However, the fact that it is constitutionally protected basically precludes any of those charges from being pursued. Apparently, sometimes flag burners are harassed with other petty crimes like theft/littering.
    - ByteJockey 5y ago
      Those aren't enforceable, and haven't been for decades.
slg 5y ago
That is a poor test in my opinion. I do not value symbolic personal liberties like bible burning or drawing Muhammad more than economic or press freedom which have a much larger cascading effect on our lives. And the fact that the US is lacking in those two latter categories compared to many of our peer nations calls into question whether our freedom regarding guns or speech actually protects our other freedoms.
- zepto 5y ago
  The US is not lacking in either press or economic freedom compared to ‘peer’ nations.
  - slg 5y ago
    Did you click through to the link in my first comment? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_Press_(report) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_Press_(report) There are 2 indexes each for economic and press freedom. Our rankings on the economic freedom lists are 5th and 20th. On the press freedom ranks we are 44th, and 37th.
    - zepto 5y ago
      You seem to be looking at the the rank order alone, which just means there are a lot of closely bunched countries near the US on the indices. If you look at the heat maps and the actual indices themselves, along with the countries with comparable numbers, you’ll see that those lists precisely support my claim. Thanks for providing this corroborating data.
      - slg 5y ago
        You are simply factually wrong in your description of this data. 3 of the 4 indexes I listed provide defined tiers. The US is in the top tier on only 1 of the 3 lists. On that one list there are 60 counties in the top tier. On the other two lists we are in the 2nd tier defined as "satisfactory situation" and "mostly free". The organizations behind the lists clearly think there is room for improvement. This data does not corroborate your point.
        zepto 5y ago
        I am not factually wrong. Here is what I said: “The US is not lacking in either press or economic freedom compared to ‘peer’ nations.” Whether or not there are countries who have better ratings, any honest reading of the list sees that the US ratings are similar to peers. When you consider how large and diverse the US is compared to most countries on the list, the ranking becomes more impressive. The first list puts the US above all of Europe except Switzerland, and above all of Scandinavia, and Canada and Australia. The second list puts the US above Sweden, Germany, and Japan for example. The third, doesn’t have ranks, but places US in the ‘satisfactory’ category along with most of Europe, Canada, and Australia. The fourth, is the only one in which the US does a little worse on their points scale, however *it is back in the top tier described as ‘free’ alongside all its peers, and above the UK, France and Japan in the ranking. It’s just bullshit to claim these lists indicate that the US is lacking compared to peers.
modriano 5y ago
How often do you make use of your freedom to make meaningless antagonistic gestures to Muslims or Christians? Would you rank it as more or less important than the freedom to go for a run in public without being shot or harassed (which is not really afforded to Black Americans [0])? [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/sports/running-while-black-ahmaud-arbery.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/sports/running-while-blac...
- paisawalla 5y ago
  How should I make sense of the fact that I saw several Black Americans jogging this week. Are they scofflaws and rebels?
  - modriano 5y ago
    You clearly didn't read the collected stories in that article. The NYTimes requested letters from Black people on their experiences running after a Black man, Ahmaud Arbery, was murdered awhile running and a big part of the national narrative consisted of false allegations that he had just burgled some place. It seems a lot of Black people are afraid to run because they know there's a real risk that they'll be shot by white people who will assume they've committed a crime. They're afraid people will immediately assume they're scofflaws, as you joked (?), and hurt or harass them. So you may have seen black people running, but that may be because you live in a more progressive neighborhood with BLM signs that has made Black runners feel less like they'd be murdered in your neighborhood than in other neighborhoods (as one person explained in that article). If we're measuring freedom, the right to exist in public without a reasonable expectation of violence and harassment seems important.
    - paisawalla 5y ago
      Okay, but you said "Blacks are not afforded the freedom to run," not that some people (how many?) have apprehensions or misgivings about doing so (not a lack of freedom). Apartheid in South Africa was a different thing from "some people are afraid, possibly irrationally so". Lastly, this has nothing to do with gun ownership? You can find people expressing exactly the same sentiments all over western Europe.
klyrs 5y ago
Interesting. Kids in many countries throughout the middle east and northern Africa have essentially unrestricted access to firearms, including shit you can't buy in most US states, but your "Draw a Muhammad" litmus test wouldn't fly. What does this indicate? Let's burn the American flag instead. How's that gonna go in rural counties of the US? Will it be safe, or will the response be armed?
- syshum 5y ago
  >Let's burn the American flag instead The response will be armed You will not be Shot unless you tried to harm someone first You will be yelled at, called names, and maybe at most hit across the head They will try to stop you, put out the fire, and prevent you from burning the flag They will not shoot you dead...
  - klyrs 5y ago
    You're saying that I should expect to be assaulted and arrested in response to an exercise of free speech. That's a fail. If I persist, or defend myself, as people attempt to stop me, are you positive that I wouldn't get shot by some trigger-happy kid like Kyle Rittenhouse?
  - x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
    And what happens if I physically intervene to stop them from putting out my flag?
    - bitxbitxbitcoin 5y ago
      Honestly, depends what state you are in and if defending property is legal.
- KorematsuFredt 5y ago
  The litmus test is to measure freedom and not effectiveness of guns on freedom. It is pretty hard to organize 'Draw A Muhammad' workshop in non-muslim countries like Canada, UK or India. That tells you how less free those countries are. Secondly, freedom is used (always) in the context of Government. In India, Canada or UK it is not the fellow muslim you have to worry about but the government jailing you. In the absence of a robust violent respons from society government will take away your freedoms one by one to simplify their own life at your expense. > Let's burn the American flag instead. Please do. It is an important freedom Americans have and constitutional granted free speech right. American flag is burned, insulted on regular basis in USA. Just like flag insulting national anthem is another form of protest in USA. I have not heard of anyone being punished or killed in USA for burning American flag. Most certainly the government can't punish you for the same.

rkk3 5y ago

Along that line of thinking it's now illegal to burn the US flag.

nverno 5y ago
No, it is legal to burn the US flag assuming it's your flag (in the United States)
- rkk3 5y ago
  Sort of, there are still laws against it in almost every state. https://apnews.com/article/803cf0e75e924afbbbe9c77f15517da5 https://apnews.com/article/803cf0e75e924afbbbe9c77f15517da5
  - nverno 5y ago
    Wow, it is infuriating that people are still getting harassed for that. However, the fact that it is constitutionally protected basically precludes any of those charges from being pursued. Apparently, sometimes flag burners are harassed with other petty crimes like theft/littering.
  - ByteJockey 5y ago
    Those aren't enforceable, and haven't been for decades.

slg 5y ago

That is a poor test in my opinion. I do not value symbolic personal liberties like bible burning or drawing Muhammad more than economic or press freedom which have a much larger cascading effect on our lives. And the fact that the US is lacking in those two latter categories compared to many of our peer nations calls into question whether our freedom regarding guns or speech actually protects our other freedoms.

zepto 5y ago
The US is not lacking in either press or economic freedom compared to ‘peer’ nations.
- slg 5y ago
  Did you click through to the link in my first comment? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_Press_(report) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_Press_(report) There are 2 indexes each for economic and press freedom. Our rankings on the economic freedom lists are 5th and 20th. On the press freedom ranks we are 44th, and 37th.
  - zepto 5y ago
    You seem to be looking at the the rank order alone, which just means there are a lot of closely bunched countries near the US on the indices. If you look at the heat maps and the actual indices themselves, along with the countries with comparable numbers, you’ll see that those lists precisely support my claim. Thanks for providing this corroborating data.
    - slg 5y ago
      You are simply factually wrong in your description of this data. 3 of the 4 indexes I listed provide defined tiers. The US is in the top tier on only 1 of the 3 lists. On that one list there are 60 counties in the top tier. On the other two lists we are in the 2nd tier defined as "satisfactory situation" and "mostly free". The organizations behind the lists clearly think there is room for improvement. This data does not corroborate your point.
      - zepto 5y ago
        I am not factually wrong. Here is what I said: “The US is not lacking in either press or economic freedom compared to ‘peer’ nations.” Whether or not there are countries who have better ratings, any honest reading of the list sees that the US ratings are similar to peers. When you consider how large and diverse the US is compared to most countries on the list, the ranking becomes more impressive. The first list puts the US above all of Europe except Switzerland, and above all of Scandinavia, and Canada and Australia. The second list puts the US above Sweden, Germany, and Japan for example. The third, doesn’t have ranks, but places US in the ‘satisfactory’ category along with most of Europe, Canada, and Australia. The fourth, is the only one in which the US does a little worse on their points scale, however *it is back in the top tier described as ‘free’ alongside all its peers, and above the UK, France and Japan in the ranking. It’s just bullshit to claim these lists indicate that the US is lacking compared to peers.

modriano 5y ago

How often do you make use of your freedom to make meaningless antagonistic gestures to Muslims or Christians? Would you rank it as more or less important than the freedom to go for a run in public without being shot or harassed (which is not really afforded to Black Americans [0])? [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/sports/running-while-black-ahmaud-arbery.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/sports/running-while-blac...

paisawalla 5y ago
How should I make sense of the fact that I saw several Black Americans jogging this week. Are they scofflaws and rebels?
- modriano 5y ago
  You clearly didn't read the collected stories in that article. The NYTimes requested letters from Black people on their experiences running after a Black man, Ahmaud Arbery, was murdered awhile running and a big part of the national narrative consisted of false allegations that he had just burgled some place. It seems a lot of Black people are afraid to run because they know there's a real risk that they'll be shot by white people who will assume they've committed a crime. They're afraid people will immediately assume they're scofflaws, as you joked (?), and hurt or harass them. So you may have seen black people running, but that may be because you live in a more progressive neighborhood with BLM signs that has made Black runners feel less like they'd be murdered in your neighborhood than in other neighborhoods (as one person explained in that article). If we're measuring freedom, the right to exist in public without a reasonable expectation of violence and harassment seems important.
  - paisawalla 5y ago
    Okay, but you said "Blacks are not afforded the freedom to run," not that some people (how many?) have apprehensions or misgivings about doing so (not a lack of freedom). Apartheid in South Africa was a different thing from "some people are afraid, possibly irrationally so". Lastly, this has nothing to do with gun ownership? You can find people expressing exactly the same sentiments all over western Europe.

klyrs 5y ago

Interesting. Kids in many countries throughout the middle east and northern Africa have essentially unrestricted access to firearms, including shit you can't buy in most US states, but your "Draw a Muhammad" litmus test wouldn't fly. What does this indicate? Let's burn the American flag instead. How's that gonna go in rural counties of the US? Will it be safe, or will the response be armed?

syshum 5y ago
>Let's burn the American flag instead The response will be armed You will not be Shot unless you tried to harm someone first You will be yelled at, called names, and maybe at most hit across the head They will try to stop you, put out the fire, and prevent you from burning the flag They will not shoot you dead...
- klyrs 5y ago
  You're saying that I should expect to be assaulted and arrested in response to an exercise of free speech. That's a fail. If I persist, or defend myself, as people attempt to stop me, are you positive that I wouldn't get shot by some trigger-happy kid like Kyle Rittenhouse?
- x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
  And what happens if I physically intervene to stop them from putting out my flag?
  - bitxbitxbitcoin 5y ago
    Honestly, depends what state you are in and if defending property is legal.
KorematsuFredt 5y ago
The litmus test is to measure freedom and not effectiveness of guns on freedom. It is pretty hard to organize 'Draw A Muhammad' workshop in non-muslim countries like Canada, UK or India. That tells you how less free those countries are. Secondly, freedom is used (always) in the context of Government. In India, Canada or UK it is not the fellow muslim you have to worry about but the government jailing you. In the absence of a robust violent respons from society government will take away your freedoms one by one to simplify their own life at your expense. > Let's burn the American flag instead. Please do. It is an important freedom Americans have and constitutional granted free speech right. American flag is burned, insulted on regular basis in USA. Just like flag insulting national anthem is another form of protest in USA. I have not heard of anyone being punished or killed in USA for burning American flag. Most certainly the government can't punish you for the same.