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>The US is not that bad compared to other New World countries. Yeah, I'd add that France doesn't have a long, porous border with the developing world. Nor near

>The US is not that bad compared to other New World countries. Yeah, I'd add that France doesn't have a long, porous border with the developing world. Nor nearly as much heterogeneity in its population.

mattcwilson 5y ago
Not sure why you're being downvoted. These are facts about France vs. the U.S. Maybe "developing" is a /little/ strong for Mexico, but I take your point to be more about Central America generally.
- pasabagi 5y ago
  Because it's nonsense. Until the 60's, Algeria was literally part of France. It's an extremely diverse country.
  - stef25 5y ago
    France is diverse because it had a colony several thousand Km to the south?
philwelch 5y ago
I'm not actually sure how accurate that is. France has an ethnically and religiously heterogeneous population, high levels of immigration from Africa, and open borders with the rest of the EU.
- qeternity 5y ago
  You’re drastically over estimating the amount of African immigrants in France. And very few people are immigrating from the rest of the EU (in fact, French immigrants are a bit of a meme everywhere else, escaping high taxation).
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
  Open borders with the rest of the EU is...Spain, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium. And adorable Andorra. Oh, and Italy. All of which are comparable to Mexico where it counts, of course. /s
  - philwelch 5y ago
    There's also Hungary, Poland, Romania....
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    There are usually no border controls from France as far as the EU borders with Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Serbia and Andorra. Romania and Bulgaria's borders seem fairly porous, and Bulgaria borders Turkey. There is a marine border with North Africa, which is probably the closest equivalent to the US/Mexico border.
Taniwha 5y ago
Pretty sure that in total far more guns are moving south from the US than north into it
- adamredwoods 5y ago
  Mexico is trying to sue because of that: https://www.npr.org/2021/08/28/1031965159/mexico-sues-u-s-guns-manufacturers-for-fueling-violence#:~:text=For%20the%20first%20time%2C%20a,the%20last%20two%20years%20alone https://www.npr.org/2021/08/28/1031965159/mexico-sues-u-s-gu....
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
France is quite heterogenous. The "homogeneous = less crime" argument is a bit xenophobic/racist at best, and not quite true. Societies with an impoverished underclass is what causes higher crime rates, regardless of whether or not the underclass is mainly comprised of ethnic minorities. France (heterogenous) and Japan (homogenous) take better care of their poor than the US (heterogenous) and Guatemala (homogenous), which is what causes the disparity in murder rates.
- qeternity 5y ago
  > France is quite heterogenous. Paris, yes. France, no. France as a whole is very homogenous.
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
    Immigrant populations in both France and the United States are in the mid-teens, percentage-wise. [1] Japan's immigrant population stands at 2.0%, and Guatamala's is 0.5%. I'm aware that there are other measures of diversity, but many of the comments here were mentioning the United States's border with Mexico specifically as a reason for its high murder rate, which doesn't seem to hold up once you dig into the numbers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_immigrant_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_d...
    - NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
      I think the other measures of diversity are the ones that are important. For instance, an influx of Canadian immigrants to the U.S. would, I expect, cause no problems at all because Canada is by and large very culturally similar to the U.S. The border is important in my thinking mainly because corruption and organized crime are endemic to Mexico, though immigration of people from a significantly different ethnicity+culture is also important in the U.S. picture.
- bobthechef 5y ago
  > The "homogeneous = less crime" argument is a bit xenophobic/racist at best, and not quite true. Why the ad hominem? It stifles conversation. I think it is entirely legitimate to make the claim that ethnic, and actually more so religious/worldview heterogeneity can cause conflict. Heterogeneity is inversely correlated with trust because trust is formed through understanding and appropriate agreement and these differences often mean misunderstanding and disagreement. You can talk about dialoging as a way to reduce conflict, but even when understanding exists, when one norm must prevail and two groups are in conflict, this will leads to problems. The more fundamental the conflict, the worse it gets. Look at Yugoslavia. Are Croats, Serbs, and Bosnians "racially" different? No. Language? Not really. So the source of conflict is religious. The political conflict in the US today is mostly religious in nature, where "religious" is broadly understood.

mattcwilson 5y ago

Not sure why you're being downvoted. These are facts about France vs. the U.S. Maybe "developing" is a /little/ strong for Mexico, but I take your point to be more about Central America generally.

pasabagi 5y ago
Because it's nonsense. Until the 60's, Algeria was literally part of France. It's an extremely diverse country.
- stef25 5y ago
  France is diverse because it had a colony several thousand Km to the south?

philwelch 5y ago

I'm not actually sure how accurate that is. France has an ethnically and religiously heterogeneous population, high levels of immigration from Africa, and open borders with the rest of the EU.

qeternity 5y ago
You’re drastically over estimating the amount of African immigrants in France. And very few people are immigrating from the rest of the EU (in fact, French immigrants are a bit of a meme everywhere else, escaping high taxation).
NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
Open borders with the rest of the EU is...Spain, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium. And adorable Andorra. Oh, and Italy. All of which are comparable to Mexico where it counts, of course. /s
- philwelch 5y ago
  There's also Hungary, Poland, Romania....
- Symbiote 5y ago
  There are usually no border controls from France as far as the EU borders with Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Serbia and Andorra. Romania and Bulgaria's borders seem fairly porous, and Bulgaria borders Turkey. There is a marine border with North Africa, which is probably the closest equivalent to the US/Mexico border.

Taniwha 5y ago

Pretty sure that in total far more guns are moving south from the US than north into it

adamredwoods 5y ago
Mexico is trying to sue because of that: https://www.npr.org/2021/08/28/1031965159/mexico-sues-u-s-guns-manufacturers-for-fueling-violence#:~:text=For%20the%20first%20time%2C%20a,the%20last%20two%20years%20alone https://www.npr.org/2021/08/28/1031965159/mexico-sues-u-s-gu....

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago

France is quite heterogenous. The "homogeneous = less crime" argument is a bit xenophobic/racist at best, and not quite true. Societies with an impoverished underclass is what causes higher crime rates, regardless of whether or not the underclass is mainly comprised of ethnic minorities. France (heterogenous) and Japan (homogenous) take better care of their poor than the US (heterogenous) and Guatemala (homogenous), which is what causes the disparity in murder rates.

qeternity 5y ago
> France is quite heterogenous. Paris, yes. France, no. France as a whole is very homogenous.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
  Immigrant populations in both France and the United States are in the mid-teens, percentage-wise. [1] Japan's immigrant population stands at 2.0%, and Guatamala's is 0.5%. I'm aware that there are other measures of diversity, but many of the comments here were mentioning the United States's border with Mexico specifically as a reason for its high murder rate, which doesn't seem to hold up once you dig into the numbers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_immigrant_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_d...
  - NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
    I think the other measures of diversity are the ones that are important. For instance, an influx of Canadian immigrants to the U.S. would, I expect, cause no problems at all because Canada is by and large very culturally similar to the U.S. The border is important in my thinking mainly because corruption and organized crime are endemic to Mexico, though immigration of people from a significantly different ethnicity+culture is also important in the U.S. picture.
bobthechef 5y ago
> The "homogeneous = less crime" argument is a bit xenophobic/racist at best, and not quite true. Why the ad hominem? It stifles conversation. I think it is entirely legitimate to make the claim that ethnic, and actually more so religious/worldview heterogeneity can cause conflict. Heterogeneity is inversely correlated with trust because trust is formed through understanding and appropriate agreement and these differences often mean misunderstanding and disagreement. You can talk about dialoging as a way to reduce conflict, but even when understanding exists, when one norm must prevail and two groups are in conflict, this will leads to problems. The more fundamental the conflict, the worse it gets. Look at Yugoslavia. Are Croats, Serbs, and Bosnians "racially" different? No. Language? Not really. So the source of conflict is religious. The political conflict in the US today is mostly religious in nature, where "religious" is broadly understood.