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I was an executive manager at 2 different startups that originally had "unlimited" PTO. In both of cases it felt wrong to me: The reality is that PTO is never

I was an executive manager at 2 different startups that originally had "unlimited" PTO. In both of cases it felt wrong to me: The reality is that PTO is never unlimited. Like, if it was unlimited, someone could come to me and ask for 40 days of PTO and I'd have to tell them yeah. Or what about taking every Friday off? The result was that, lazy/low-performing people would take the most PTO while high performing more dedicated people would sometimes NOT take 1 day in a year (I had to remind/push them to take PTO at the end of the year for their own sainity!!). Personally, I prefer companies that tell me "25 days of PTO" or 20 or 30 or whatever. That way you everyone including the managers know that every employee WILL be out of the office that time, and it becomes a RIGHT of the employee instead of a charity of the manager. Ultimately, in these two startups changed from "unlimited" to something between 2 and 4 weeks of PTO per person.

3pt14159 5y ago
I'm a contractor, and I do pretty well. I bill by the day or by the hour. Client's choice. I even round down to the nearest even hour each day so I don't ever have to have that icky feeling of "did I really bill them right this week?" which would just distract me. When I work 14 hours in a row, that's what I bill. If I'm in the zone I push it till I fall over. It's worth it for the client. If I'm having an off day, I go home early and bill 4 or 6 hours. If I'm billing by the day, I just bill by the day. Whether it's 14 hours of working or 4, it evens out and if I'm unsure, I'll bill half a day. The important part is that the work gets done. And if I work a Saturday, you bet it's billed. Now, why do I say all of this? Because when it comes to time off I vastly prefer my situation. Sick for months? I'm not worrying about whether my PTO qualifies or whatever. I just don't get paid. This has happened recently and when I was healthy again my clients were happy I was able to help again. This weird sorta dance around time off (sick days, PTO, government holidays, dealing with a manager under pressure for the quarter, etc) makes a bit of sense for the working poor, but I don't understand why so many software developers bother. Just bill what you work and if you want a day, week, or month off take it. I'm sure if more developers asked to work this way large corps would be happy to accommodate them.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ipaddr 5y ago
  That sounds like your situation but not general advice. Mortgages are required to be paid monthly a sudden loss of income would hit many hard.
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    Obviously for this stuff to be workable you need to way more than what's needed to cover living expenses and have long term savings.
  - mindslight 5y ago
    If you want to retain your freedom, don't sign yourself up for overwhelming debt.
- josefx 5y ago
  > I'm sure if more developers asked to work this way large corps would be happy to accommodate them. Oh, yes the penny pincers in accounting will just love the fact that their budget calculations for the next year will entirely consist of statements like "whatever our 1000 code monkeys feel like working even if it exceeds the amount you are willing to pay if they get into 'the zone', best case you wont have to pay them at all because none showed up".
  - 3pt14159 5y ago
    I'm not saying your comment was in bad faith, but if you have a thousand developers working for you I'm pretty sure the law of large numbers brackets your outlay.
    - josefx 5y ago
      But setting a fixed amount and accounting for the few unavoidable out layers brackets it even more.
nicoburns 5y ago
If PTO was really unlimited then nobody would have to come in at all. Which obviously wouldn't work in practice.

3pt14159 5y ago

I'm a contractor, and I do pretty well. I bill by the day or by the hour. Client's choice. I even round down to the nearest even hour each day so I don't ever have to have that icky feeling of "did I really bill them right this week?" which would just distract me. When I work 14 hours in a row, that's what I bill. If I'm in the zone I push it till I fall over. It's worth it for the client. If I'm having an off day, I go home early and bill 4 or 6 hours. If I'm billing by the day, I just bill by the day. Whether it's 14 hours of working or 4, it evens out and if I'm unsure, I'll bill half a day. The important part is that the work gets done. And if I work a Saturday, you bet it's billed. Now, why do I say all of this? Because when it comes to time off I vastly prefer my situation. Sick for months? I'm not worrying about whether my PTO qualifies or whatever. I just don't get paid. This has happened recently and when I was healthy again my clients were happy I was able to help again. This weird sorta dance around time off (sick days, PTO, government holidays, dealing with a manager under pressure for the quarter, etc) makes a bit of sense for the working poor, but I don't understand why so many software developers bother. Just bill what you work and if you want a day, week, or month off take it. I'm sure if more developers asked to work this way large corps would be happy to accommodate them.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ipaddr 5y ago
That sounds like your situation but not general advice. Mortgages are required to be paid monthly a sudden loss of income would hit many hard.
- KptMarchewa 5y ago
  Obviously for this stuff to be workable you need to way more than what's needed to cover living expenses and have long term savings.
- mindslight 5y ago
  If you want to retain your freedom, don't sign yourself up for overwhelming debt.
josefx 5y ago
> I'm sure if more developers asked to work this way large corps would be happy to accommodate them. Oh, yes the penny pincers in accounting will just love the fact that their budget calculations for the next year will entirely consist of statements like "whatever our 1000 code monkeys feel like working even if it exceeds the amount you are willing to pay if they get into 'the zone', best case you wont have to pay them at all because none showed up".
- 3pt14159 5y ago
  I'm not saying your comment was in bad faith, but if you have a thousand developers working for you I'm pretty sure the law of large numbers brackets your outlay.
  - josefx 5y ago
    But setting a fixed amount and accounting for the few unavoidable out layers brackets it even more.

nicoburns 5y ago

If PTO was really unlimited then nobody would have to come in at all. Which obviously wouldn't work in practice.