5 ms·

Murder rate isn't the whole story. Check out the suicide rate, how gun ownership affects a successful attempt and who is killing themselves in the US.

by comrh 5y ago

spyder 5y ago
Yep, that's so crazy and sad: "Men who own handguns are eight times more likely to die of gun suicides than men who don’t own handguns, and women who own handguns are 35 times more likely than women who don’t." https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-ownership-associated-with-much-higher-suicide-risk.html https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-owner... :-( Also: "Sixty percent of deaths from firearms in the U.S. are suicides." So if somebody dies from a firearm in the US it's more likely to be suicide than other firearm related death. https://health.ucdavis.edu/what-you-can-do/facts.html https://health.ucdavis.edu/what-you-can-do/facts.html
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mardifoufs 5y ago
  Yet US Suicide rates are comparable to those of Sweden, Finland, Norway, Canada. A big higher but very very close. So I don't see how guns matter in that case. If they did matter to the actual decision of killing yourself or not, you'd see an actual correlation worldwide. Also, I'm not sure if the stats account for people buying guns just to kill themselves. Like is it only including long time owners? Otherwise I again don't see the difference between buying a gun to commit suicide vs doing it via hanging. The message it sends is that having a gun in your house makes it more likely for you to commit suicide. But causation can just as easily be reversed, i.e. if you are suicidal you're probably more a lot more likely to acquire a gun. Would it be surprising that someone who wants to die is more likely to have something that can help him do just that?
  - DanBC 5y ago
    > Yet US Suicide rates are comparable to those of Sweden, Finland, Norway, Canada. US has a narrow definition for death by suicide that requires knowledge of intent. Compare the US definition with the UK definition. US: "Suicide is a death caused by self-directed injurious behavior with any intent to die as a result" https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicideTechnicalPackage.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicideTechnicalP... UK: "this includes all deaths from intentional self-harm for persons aged 10 years and over and deaths caused by injury or poisoning where the intent was undetermined for those aged 15 years and over." https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/latest https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde... > The message it sends is that having a gun in your house makes it more likely for you to commit suicide. Yes. It's well established in suicide research that preventing access to means and methods is an important suicide prevention measure. Which suicide prevention research have you recently read?
ApolloFortyNine 5y ago
This argument has to be the worst out of all the anti gun arguments. We going to ban rope next? Ban trains, since it's a bit too easy to step in front of one? Knives? If someone wants to kill their self, there are innumerable easy ways to do so. It's even likely in most households you could hang yourself quicker than you could get to your gun, if that's really what you wanted. Giving up the right to own a gun so that someone who wants to commit suicide is forced to use another means is such a terrible argument.
- DanBC 5y ago
  Removing access to means and method is an important suicide prevention measure. Method substitution doesn't work like you think it does. Your answer is anti-science. You don't have any evidence to support it.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    While this argument does seem to follow the science (I'd have to dig into a few studies to see the details), it doesn't address the policy question of if people should give up their right (US) to own a firearm to protect themselves on the off-chance they become suicidal. And an even deeper discussion about if we should allow some suicides. Two of three people I know who killed themselves with guns were older men slipping into dementia who didn't want to endure that and put their families through that. Seems both rational and reasonable to me, but others may differ. This is also a pretty well-known scenario - killing oneself when facing a prolonged terminal illness, and would be interesting to see how the research treats these cases. To be fair, the third was a tragic case of a young man who's life was ruined by the justice system's enormous penalties for supplying alcohol to a minor (20 yo at college). Although, theoretically this suicide should not have been with a gun since that offense is a prohibiting felony.

Murder rate isn't the whole story. Check out the suicide rate, how gun ownership affects a successful attempt and who is killing themselves in the US.

by comrh 5y ago

Murder rate isn't the whole story. Check out the suicide rate, how gun ownership affects a successful attempt and who is killing themselves in the US.

spyder 5y ago

Yep, that's so crazy and sad: "Men who own handguns are eight times more likely to die of gun suicides than men who don’t own handguns, and women who own handguns are 35 times more likely than women who don’t." https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-ownership-associated-with-much-higher-suicide-risk.html https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-owner... :-( Also: "Sixty percent of deaths from firearms in the U.S. are suicides." So if somebody dies from a firearm in the US it's more likely to be suicide than other firearm related death. https://health.ucdavis.edu/what-you-can-do/facts.html https://health.ucdavis.edu/what-you-can-do/facts.html

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mardifoufs 5y ago
Yet US Suicide rates are comparable to those of Sweden, Finland, Norway, Canada. A big higher but very very close. So I don't see how guns matter in that case. If they did matter to the actual decision of killing yourself or not, you'd see an actual correlation worldwide. Also, I'm not sure if the stats account for people buying guns just to kill themselves. Like is it only including long time owners? Otherwise I again don't see the difference between buying a gun to commit suicide vs doing it via hanging. The message it sends is that having a gun in your house makes it more likely for you to commit suicide. But causation can just as easily be reversed, i.e. if you are suicidal you're probably more a lot more likely to acquire a gun. Would it be surprising that someone who wants to die is more likely to have something that can help him do just that?
- DanBC 5y ago
  > Yet US Suicide rates are comparable to those of Sweden, Finland, Norway, Canada. US has a narrow definition for death by suicide that requires knowledge of intent. Compare the US definition with the UK definition. US: "Suicide is a death caused by self-directed injurious behavior with any intent to die as a result" https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicideTechnicalPackage.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicideTechnicalP... UK: "this includes all deaths from intentional self-harm for persons aged 10 years and over and deaths caused by injury or poisoning where the intent was undetermined for those aged 15 years and over." https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/latest https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde... > The message it sends is that having a gun in your house makes it more likely for you to commit suicide. Yes. It's well established in suicide research that preventing access to means and methods is an important suicide prevention measure. Which suicide prevention research have you recently read?

ApolloFortyNine 5y ago

This argument has to be the worst out of all the anti gun arguments. We going to ban rope next? Ban trains, since it's a bit too easy to step in front of one? Knives? If someone wants to kill their self, there are innumerable easy ways to do so. It's even likely in most households you could hang yourself quicker than you could get to your gun, if that's really what you wanted. Giving up the right to own a gun so that someone who wants to commit suicide is forced to use another means is such a terrible argument.

DanBC 5y ago
Removing access to means and method is an important suicide prevention measure. Method substitution doesn't work like you think it does. Your answer is anti-science. You don't have any evidence to support it.
- giantg2 5y ago
  While this argument does seem to follow the science (I'd have to dig into a few studies to see the details), it doesn't address the policy question of if people should give up their right (US) to own a firearm to protect themselves on the off-chance they become suicidal. And an even deeper discussion about if we should allow some suicides. Two of three people I know who killed themselves with guns were older men slipping into dementia who didn't want to endure that and put their families through that. Seems both rational and reasonable to me, but others may differ. This is also a pretty well-known scenario - killing oneself when facing a prolonged terminal illness, and would be interesting to see how the research treats these cases. To be fair, the third was a tragic case of a young man who's life was ruined by the justice system's enormous penalties for supplying alcohol to a minor (20 yo at college). Although, theoretically this suicide should not have been with a gun since that offense is a prohibiting felony.