4 ms·

It is like unlimited benefits. As soon as you put limits on it, some people start to look at "using them up."

ethbr0 5y ago
The counterpoint is also valid: don't have policies which, if used, would be untenable to the company. The best places I've worked have had PTO policies, no rollover (but flexibility for longer trips), and (critically) managers who would gripe at you at the end of the year if you didn't use your PTO. Expectations were clear, everyone was on an equal playing field, and PTO was sized to something the company could afford everyone making use of.
- aviau 5y ago
  > don't have policies which, if used, would be untenable to the company. I am ambivalent on this. Some benefits are a bit like insurance, I don't mind not using them fully but I am glad its available when I need it. The big issue is that it has to be available when I need it and it can't just be a scam.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    I think that's where policy + manager discretion for overages is the better approach. Your manager should know if you and your team are killing it. "Unlimited PTO" just sounds like make believe land. And if it's not an actual, usable, guaranteed policy that doesn't negatively impact your career... then why are we deluding ourselves and creating a policy vs culture mismatch?
  - susiecambria 5y ago
    Agree completely. Years ago, when I was first married (like several months after getting married), my husband needed surgery. The surgeon thought it might be pancreatic cancer. The board gave me all the time I needed, no questions. And, the day of the surgery, a colleague from work spent the day at the hospital with me. A free day from the board and director. Now it's true that I worked every day husband was in the hospital - I mean, he was sleeping most of the time so why not work? But they knew I would work since that's what I did. I delivered for years. I was incredibly grateful they allowed me to take the time. Am still grateful. But I was also in a position where I could take an unpaid leave or quit. Neither optimal, but family comes first. Would the organization have done the same for other staff? I don't think so. I had been there the longest and busted my ass for them, loving the work every single day.
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      Coincidentally, I quit a consulting job that wouldn't give me (unpaid) time off to be with my mother through surgery for pancreatic cancer (positive outcome, so far). Had saved enough that finances permitted, and I still feel great about the decision.
billti 5y ago
Exactly. I haven't seen it as much now I'm in the U.S., but when I worked in Australia, it was very common for your 2 weeks of paid sick leave to be seen as "vacation". Most people who had sick leave left come December, were suddenly sick for a few days before the end of the year.
- 2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
  The sickie is an Australian tradition.
- jlawer 5y ago
  Depends on your role / age / situation. When I was younger and working more junior roles and moving from role to role every year or 2 (generally headhunted) there was a use it or loose it mentality. You wouldn’t take the day off the moment you had a sniffle / didn’t feel 100%. However once your older, have kids and are at the role for more then a few years, that sick leave is often “banked” for when the kids come down with whatever is going around the schoolyard this week
fatnoah 5y ago
Having gone from limited PTO to unlimited really helped me realize that I'm a hoarder. When PTO is limited, I rarely take it, but when I had unlimited I was much more liberal about actually using it. I went from average 1-2 weeks per year to 5-6, mostly by taking random days here and there, ducking out early to have a fun afternoon with the kiddo, etc.
- RHSeeger 5y ago
  I don't understand unlimited PTO. I mean, why not just take every Friday off, then? There is almost never a point at where where there's no work to be done; it's never going to be a case of "as long as you get your work done, you can take time off"... because there's no such thing as "done", just "prioritized".
  - mattnewton 5y ago
    If you can be competitive with peers and get enough done to continue progressing in your career with every Friday off, why not? The limit for me has always been my own productivity (and availability for meetings), and I think at a certain role level it's a reasonable expectation that you be measured in outcomes and not time spent at desk.
  - fatnoah 5y ago
    There are still expectations on the amount or level of work to be done. If you're meeting those and not blocking others, there's no reason one couldn't take more time off. It's certainly a tricky thing to sort out, though. As you noted, "abuse" is possible, but defining what constitutes abuse is nearly impossible.
- TeMPOraL 5y ago
  You call it "hoarder", I'd call it "low risk tolerance". I'm sort of the same. I never had unlimited PTO, but I tend to save my time off for cases where I actually need it. Saved my bacon a bunch of times, before I started working remotely, with teams/companies that don't mind me taking off half a day to run some important errands, as long as my total work hours add up to the correct number each month.
paul_f 5y ago
Reminds me of the story in Freaknomics of a Daycare that instituted a late fee. After the fee was instituted, the number of parents being late went up!
- KptMarchewa 5y ago
  Sounds like a situation where you go from feeling like an asshole to the daycare employees to utilizing service that you paid for.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    That is exactly the conclusion they drew.

The counterpoint is also valid: don't have policies which, if used, would be untenable to the company. The best places I've worked have had PTO policies, no rollover (but flexibility for longer trips), and (critically) managers who would gripe at you at the end of the year if you didn't use your PTO. Expectations were clear, everyone was on an equal playing field, and PTO was sized to something the company could afford everyone making use of.

aviau 5y ago
> don't have policies which, if used, would be untenable to the company. I am ambivalent on this. Some benefits are a bit like insurance, I don't mind not using them fully but I am glad its available when I need it. The big issue is that it has to be available when I need it and it can't just be a scam.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  I think that's where policy + manager discretion for overages is the better approach. Your manager should know if you and your team are killing it. "Unlimited PTO" just sounds like make believe land. And if it's not an actual, usable, guaranteed policy that doesn't negatively impact your career... then why are we deluding ourselves and creating a policy vs culture mismatch?
- susiecambria 5y ago
  Agree completely. Years ago, when I was first married (like several months after getting married), my husband needed surgery. The surgeon thought it might be pancreatic cancer. The board gave me all the time I needed, no questions. And, the day of the surgery, a colleague from work spent the day at the hospital with me. A free day from the board and director. Now it's true that I worked every day husband was in the hospital - I mean, he was sleeping most of the time so why not work? But they knew I would work since that's what I did. I delivered for years. I was incredibly grateful they allowed me to take the time. Am still grateful. But I was also in a position where I could take an unpaid leave or quit. Neither optimal, but family comes first. Would the organization have done the same for other staff? I don't think so. I had been there the longest and busted my ass for them, loving the work every single day.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    Coincidentally, I quit a consulting job that wouldn't give me (unpaid) time off to be with my mother through surgery for pancreatic cancer (positive outcome, so far). Had saved enough that finances permitted, and I still feel great about the decision.

billti 5y ago

Exactly. I haven't seen it as much now I'm in the U.S., but when I worked in Australia, it was very common for your 2 weeks of paid sick leave to be seen as "vacation". Most people who had sick leave left come December, were suddenly sick for a few days before the end of the year.

2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
The sickie is an Australian tradition.
jlawer 5y ago
Depends on your role / age / situation. When I was younger and working more junior roles and moving from role to role every year or 2 (generally headhunted) there was a use it or loose it mentality. You wouldn’t take the day off the moment you had a sniffle / didn’t feel 100%. However once your older, have kids and are at the role for more then a few years, that sick leave is often “banked” for when the kids come down with whatever is going around the schoolyard this week

fatnoah 5y ago

Having gone from limited PTO to unlimited really helped me realize that I'm a hoarder. When PTO is limited, I rarely take it, but when I had unlimited I was much more liberal about actually using it. I went from average 1-2 weeks per year to 5-6, mostly by taking random days here and there, ducking out early to have a fun afternoon with the kiddo, etc.

RHSeeger 5y ago
I don't understand unlimited PTO. I mean, why not just take every Friday off, then? There is almost never a point at where where there's no work to be done; it's never going to be a case of "as long as you get your work done, you can take time off"... because there's no such thing as "done", just "prioritized".
- mattnewton 5y ago
  If you can be competitive with peers and get enough done to continue progressing in your career with every Friday off, why not? The limit for me has always been my own productivity (and availability for meetings), and I think at a certain role level it's a reasonable expectation that you be measured in outcomes and not time spent at desk.
- fatnoah 5y ago
  There are still expectations on the amount or level of work to be done. If you're meeting those and not blocking others, there's no reason one couldn't take more time off. It's certainly a tricky thing to sort out, though. As you noted, "abuse" is possible, but defining what constitutes abuse is nearly impossible.
TeMPOraL 5y ago
You call it "hoarder", I'd call it "low risk tolerance". I'm sort of the same. I never had unlimited PTO, but I tend to save my time off for cases where I actually need it. Saved my bacon a bunch of times, before I started working remotely, with teams/companies that don't mind me taking off half a day to run some important errands, as long as my total work hours add up to the correct number each month.

paul_f 5y ago

Reminds me of the story in Freaknomics of a Daycare that instituted a late fee. After the fee was instituted, the number of parents being late went up!

KptMarchewa 5y ago
Sounds like a situation where you go from feeling like an asshole to the daycare employees to utilizing service that you paid for.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  That is exactly the conclusion they drew.