3 ms·

Unlimited PTO is terrible for employees. Companies implement this policy so that they don't need to pay out unused vacation days when an employee quits (which

Unlimited PTO is terrible for employees. Companies implement this policy so that they don't need to pay out unused vacation days when an employee quits (which is required by law in many locales). Further, people take less time off with unlimited PTO than with a fixed number of days. [1] Psychologically, this makes sense - with a fixed number of PTO days you feel entitled to take time off. With "unlimited PTO" you don't know where the boundaries are. At a former job, I had a good manager who asked HR for some guidance on "unlimited PTO" and shared it with our team. Unsurprisingly, HR had an unwritten policy for the number of days you could take off before you had to get PTO approval at the VP level. [1] https://blog.namely.com/unlimited-vacation-policy https://blog.namely.com/unlimited-vacation-policy

xwdv 5y ago
I don’t think it’s that simple. If you’re willing to exploit unlimited PTO then it can be a better deal for the employee, you just have to get over your feelings about taking time off.
- luckylion 5y ago
  And if you exploit it, you'll get fired. And if you're so valuable to them that they don't care, they'd be flexible on limited PTO as well, and just give you extremely generous limits.
  - xwdv 5y ago
    If you’re meeting your performance goals you won’t get fired. It’s a bluff to get you working more.
    - luckylion 5y ago
      That'd make you a super star. "Exploiting" it means taking considerable time off -- if you're gone for a third of the year and you're still hitting your goals, you're in the top 5% and companies without unlimited PTO will also get you sweet deals. But that's not what 95% of people are experiencing.
- dbbk 5y ago
  Bingo. I take 6/7 weeks off a year. The key to unlimited PTO is to... use it.
01100011 5y ago
This. Unlimited PTO is kind of a scam. Then again, I think most experienced devs know this. Come on, would a company really offer you unlimited PTO? No. That said, I feel like I do have quite a lot of PTO and I feel free to take it. Having that confidence requires having an employer that gives you feedback on your performance and knowing that you've 'earned' the time off. Even at companies with fixed PTO, there are still times when you just know taking the time off would be career suicide. Taking time off near a planned release date is just insulting to other team members. There's a story I keep going back to that I think is useful here. Way back, 20 years ago, working for a newly acquired division of WindRiver, we had an informal policy where you just got your work done and could come and go as you pleased. A couple of young, new engineers weren't comfortable with the informal policy and asked for clarification during a company meeting with upper management. Of course the official answer was that you got X days off and it required managerial approval and blah blah blah. Fortunately middle-management continued to look the other way and allowed the informal system to continue. Sometimes there are unwritten rules in business. These are, unfortunately, often unfair for new engineers and under-represented groups who don't feel secure enough in their positions to take advantage of them. I'm not sure how I feel about that. On the one hand, I like the quid-pro-quo system but I do understand that some people, especially engineers, have trouble with vagueness.
- popinman322 5y ago
  The problem is that informal policies can be bastardized by individual managers. Relying on rapport and good will doesn't work with narcissists (an extreme case) or people with different values (more mundane), for instance. And different values are common in most workplaces-- almost everyone has a slightly different answer for how much leave is too much.
- dannyw 5y ago
  That's why the Australian legislation giving everyone 4 weeks off, that is paid out at termination of employment, makes sense. Plus public holidays obviously. Employers are free to offer more if they want to attract more workers, although this rarely happens and 4 weeks is the norm.
bserge 5y ago
Is there really unlimited anything? There's always some hidden or not so hidden fair use rule.

xwdv 5y ago

I don’t think it’s that simple. If you’re willing to exploit unlimited PTO then it can be a better deal for the employee, you just have to get over your feelings about taking time off.

luckylion 5y ago
And if you exploit it, you'll get fired. And if you're so valuable to them that they don't care, they'd be flexible on limited PTO as well, and just give you extremely generous limits.
- xwdv 5y ago
  If you’re meeting your performance goals you won’t get fired. It’s a bluff to get you working more.
  - luckylion 5y ago
    That'd make you a super star. "Exploiting" it means taking considerable time off -- if you're gone for a third of the year and you're still hitting your goals, you're in the top 5% and companies without unlimited PTO will also get you sweet deals. But that's not what 95% of people are experiencing.
dbbk 5y ago
Bingo. I take 6/7 weeks off a year. The key to unlimited PTO is to... use it.

01100011 5y ago

This. Unlimited PTO is kind of a scam. Then again, I think most experienced devs know this. Come on, would a company really offer you unlimited PTO? No. That said, I feel like I do have quite a lot of PTO and I feel free to take it. Having that confidence requires having an employer that gives you feedback on your performance and knowing that you've 'earned' the time off. Even at companies with fixed PTO, there are still times when you just know taking the time off would be career suicide. Taking time off near a planned release date is just insulting to other team members. There's a story I keep going back to that I think is useful here. Way back, 20 years ago, working for a newly acquired division of WindRiver, we had an informal policy where you just got your work done and could come and go as you pleased. A couple of young, new engineers weren't comfortable with the informal policy and asked for clarification during a company meeting with upper management. Of course the official answer was that you got X days off and it required managerial approval and blah blah blah. Fortunately middle-management continued to look the other way and allowed the informal system to continue. Sometimes there are unwritten rules in business. These are, unfortunately, often unfair for new engineers and under-represented groups who don't feel secure enough in their positions to take advantage of them. I'm not sure how I feel about that. On the one hand, I like the quid-pro-quo system but I do understand that some people, especially engineers, have trouble with vagueness.

popinman322 5y ago
The problem is that informal policies can be bastardized by individual managers. Relying on rapport and good will doesn't work with narcissists (an extreme case) or people with different values (more mundane), for instance. And different values are common in most workplaces-- almost everyone has a slightly different answer for how much leave is too much.
dannyw 5y ago
That's why the Australian legislation giving everyone 4 weeks off, that is paid out at termination of employment, makes sense. Plus public holidays obviously. Employers are free to offer more if they want to attract more workers, although this rarely happens and 4 weeks is the norm.

bserge 5y ago

Is there really unlimited anything? There's always some hidden or not so hidden fair use rule.