4 ms·

Yup. All I ever found was freeloaders who don't put in nearly the same effort. Serious business people who will relentlessly try to get feedback, sell the produ

Yup. All I ever found was freeloaders who don't put in nearly the same effort. Serious business people who will relentlessly try to get feedback, sell the product and make deals are pretty rare. But when you have one, it's worth gold.

friedman23 5y ago
It's the same problem with finding developers to work for your early stage startup. Actual good sales people and marketers are in high demand everywhere. Finding one that will be committed enough as you is hard when they are fielding offers from established companies that are much easier to sell.
- conjectures 5y ago
  I think the lesson is that competence is scarce.
leetrout 5y ago
I have witnessed this exact thing at several startups. It is demoralizing. Especially when they have >1% equity and you're lucky as a dev if you have >.1%
- ecf 5y ago
  Sales + Marketing routinely have commission as well when it’s normally unheard of for devs to be included in profit sharing.
dumbfoundded 5y ago
Why not learn how to market yourself? You may not become the greatest marketer in the world but you almost certainly can be competent in less than a year. Then if you grow whatever project big enough, you can then just hire someone. And you'd actually know how to manage them with insight into their job.
- cutemonster 5y ago
  A startup with 2 people, one of them a marketer, can get twice as much done -- marketing can easily be a full time job. A single person could easily get out completed? Even if s/he is able to learn "everything" eventually Otherwise, I agree with you
  - dumbfoundded 5y ago
    Specialization & experience are good. So are more people. If finding a marketing or "business" partner for starting your project is your blocker, just learn it yourself. Sure you could get outcompeted but honestly, if one person gets outcompeted, in almost all circumstances so will 2 people.
- thrixton 5y ago
  I agree with this to an extent. So, I just need a tech founder that's willing to partner with me and do the marketing side of it. In return, I'll do the same for them. Flip a coin to see who goes first.
  - dumbfoundded 5y ago
    A founding team usually doesn't cover all of the core responsibilities necessary to run a company. Between legal, sales, marketing, product, hr, accounting, and engineering, it's rare that the founding team collectively has all of these skills mastered.
asdfman123 5y ago
I've tried to start multiple projects with non-developers, and NONE of them were willing to put in any work whatsoever. Obviously, I might have been choosing the wrong people, but they seemed fairly accomplished. I think people don't realize how much building software is boring drudgery (figuring out where to put a button). Maybe they expect it to be immediate wheeling and dealing. Non-technical cofounders need to start out as project managers, and most people don't seem willing to do it.
- pentae 5y ago
  Had a similar experience happen to me many years ago. But if I was doing it all over again I'd make sure to have a signed one page agreement on some points like this: - Both agree to work a minimum of xx hours per week on the project - Both agree on a reasonable hourly rate for each others time and then track your hours while working - If theres no venture capital then the hourly rate you both 'earn' is in credits towards future profits or equity - If one person isn't meeting their expected contribution requirements over a reasonable period they forfeit their stake in the business
cutemonster 5y ago
> All I ever found was freeloaders who don't put in nearly the same effort What happened after you noticed that they didn't? (You noticed before they had gotten any equity, and stopped working with them?)

friedman23 5y ago

It's the same problem with finding developers to work for your early stage startup. Actual good sales people and marketers are in high demand everywhere. Finding one that will be committed enough as you is hard when they are fielding offers from established companies that are much easier to sell.

conjectures 5y ago
I think the lesson is that competence is scarce.

leetrout 5y ago

I have witnessed this exact thing at several startups. It is demoralizing. Especially when they have >1% equity and you're lucky as a dev if you have >.1%

ecf 5y ago
Sales + Marketing routinely have commission as well when it’s normally unheard of for devs to be included in profit sharing.

dumbfoundded 5y ago

Why not learn how to market yourself? You may not become the greatest marketer in the world but you almost certainly can be competent in less than a year. Then if you grow whatever project big enough, you can then just hire someone. And you'd actually know how to manage them with insight into their job.

cutemonster 5y ago
A startup with 2 people, one of them a marketer, can get twice as much done -- marketing can easily be a full time job. A single person could easily get out completed? Even if s/he is able to learn "everything" eventually Otherwise, I agree with you
- dumbfoundded 5y ago
  Specialization & experience are good. So are more people. If finding a marketing or "business" partner for starting your project is your blocker, just learn it yourself. Sure you could get outcompeted but honestly, if one person gets outcompeted, in almost all circumstances so will 2 people.
thrixton 5y ago
I agree with this to an extent. So, I just need a tech founder that's willing to partner with me and do the marketing side of it. In return, I'll do the same for them. Flip a coin to see who goes first.
- dumbfoundded 5y ago
  A founding team usually doesn't cover all of the core responsibilities necessary to run a company. Between legal, sales, marketing, product, hr, accounting, and engineering, it's rare that the founding team collectively has all of these skills mastered.

asdfman123 5y ago

I've tried to start multiple projects with non-developers, and NONE of them were willing to put in any work whatsoever. Obviously, I might have been choosing the wrong people, but they seemed fairly accomplished. I think people don't realize how much building software is boring drudgery (figuring out where to put a button). Maybe they expect it to be immediate wheeling and dealing. Non-technical cofounders need to start out as project managers, and most people don't seem willing to do it.

pentae 5y ago
Had a similar experience happen to me many years ago. But if I was doing it all over again I'd make sure to have a signed one page agreement on some points like this: - Both agree to work a minimum of xx hours per week on the project - Both agree on a reasonable hourly rate for each others time and then track your hours while working - If theres no venture capital then the hourly rate you both 'earn' is in credits towards future profits or equity - If one person isn't meeting their expected contribution requirements over a reasonable period they forfeit their stake in the business

cutemonster 5y ago

> All I ever found was freeloaders who don't put in nearly the same effort What happened after you noticed that they didn't? (You noticed before they had gotten any equity, and stopped working with them?)