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I know most of you hate this word, but this is a great example of what privilege looks like: thinking you can solve a problem you have zero experience with, and

I know most of you hate this word, but this is a great example of what privilege looks like: thinking you can solve a problem you have zero experience with, and not including people who do. Another example: I was at a hackathon and met this kid who wanted to build a wristband for domestic violence victims so they could push a button and call for help when they were being abused. Great idea, he wants to use his tech knowledge to help abused spouses! That's fantastic! Nothing wrong with that and it should be supported. But since he has never experienced being an abuse victim, nor did he consult any, he didn't realize what a useless idea this is. (As soon as the abuser knows what the device is, you think they will allow it in the house, let alone take heavy retribution for buying it? Even if it was a subtle/hidden device, being caught with it would mean even more abuse.) Heart is in the right place, but intellectual arrogance needs some dialing in.

jjoonathan 5y ago
Harsh words. If they can persuade even a single person to gather enough domain knowledge to validate their efforts, I suppose they could do some good. That said, whenever I see someone doing the Dunning Kruger Maneuver, I try to approach with compassion and communicate the constraints they are missing without mocking them, humiliating them, and forcing them into a corner where they publicly lose face. Misplaced confidence is a universal and human problem, not limited to technologists, and it's an excellent place to apply the golden rule. Caveman Science Fiction illustrates it happening in reverse: https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/bw3le/caveman_science_fiction_you_are_play_gods/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/bw3le/caveman_science... For a real world reverse example, consider Jurassic Park. It convinced a generation of casual moviegoers that they understood the risks of genetic engineering to be severe and untamable, even though the movie was the furthest thing from a risk analysis: the dinosaurs were guaranteed to get out, otherwise nobody would pay to see the movie, including myself. In any case, the moment anyone brings out accusations of arrogance, privilege, naiveté, etc is the moment that battle lines are drawn and all hope of civil discourse goes out the window. That's often a waste, because most of these situations can be course-corrected without verbal bloodshed.
- mcguire 5y ago
  "[Jurassic Park] convinced a generation of casual moviegoers that they understood the risks of genetic engineering to be severe and untamable...." Well, from what I remember, it taught a generation that "those people are stupid and if they'd just done X, everything would have worked out unicorns and rainbows."
- prionassembly 5y ago
  > communicate the constraints they are missing without mocking them, humiliating them, and forcing them into a corner This. We need debate that's not about "dunking".
Moodles 5y ago
I'm kind of with your point but also not. You don't have to actually be a victim of cancer or even know anyone personally who has cancer, to help cure it. To say "it's privilege" is a weird way of phrasing it. It's just a person who needs to do better user research before building a product.
- GavinMcG 5y ago
  We're not talking about cancer. We're talking about things that involve human psychology and behavior. Privilege is why they didn't do "better user research": the person making the proposal doesn't even consider those they would impact.
  - Moodles 5y ago
    > We're not talking about cancer. We're talking about things that involve human psychology and behavior. Yes, it's a slightly different field. I don't see how that changes the point. The point is that plenty of people who aren't first hand victims of something still come up with solutions for it. This is just an example of someone who didn't. I don't really see how framing it about privileged vs not privileged inventors is helpful. All that matters is the technology ideas and how best to come up with them. And we all agree user research is good.
    - GavinMcG 5y ago
      Bringing up privilege is important because someone who is aware of it can cut off this sort of mistake before they make them. We indeed agree that user research is good. So I'd imagine we agree that it's good to think "I should put the perspective and experiences of my users front and center." And that's exactly what it takes to not be privileged.
- SavantIdiot 5y ago
  I see what you're saying, but let me try to explain what I see as the difference between the two situations. Curing cancer is about biology, chemistry, etc. It literally does not require any experience having cancer as you stated. Just lots of research and college education. However, if you said you were going to write an app to cure "the mental anxiety associated with having cancer," and you've never had cancer, but in your mind the cure is to strap on VR goggles, isolate yourself and play minecraft, then yes, that would be "privilege". You're assuming you have the solution but you have zero lived experience. That's the difference as I see it. (Obviously I don't mean "you" as in you personally.)

jjoonathan 5y ago

Harsh words. If they can persuade even a single person to gather enough domain knowledge to validate their efforts, I suppose they could do some good. That said, whenever I see someone doing the Dunning Kruger Maneuver, I try to approach with compassion and communicate the constraints they are missing without mocking them, humiliating them, and forcing them into a corner where they publicly lose face. Misplaced confidence is a universal and human problem, not limited to technologists, and it's an excellent place to apply the golden rule. Caveman Science Fiction illustrates it happening in reverse: https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/bw3le/caveman_science_fiction_you_are_play_gods/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/bw3le/caveman_science... For a real world reverse example, consider Jurassic Park. It convinced a generation of casual moviegoers that they understood the risks of genetic engineering to be severe and untamable, even though the movie was the furthest thing from a risk analysis: the dinosaurs were guaranteed to get out, otherwise nobody would pay to see the movie, including myself. In any case, the moment anyone brings out accusations of arrogance, privilege, naiveté, etc is the moment that battle lines are drawn and all hope of civil discourse goes out the window. That's often a waste, because most of these situations can be course-corrected without verbal bloodshed.

mcguire 5y ago
"[Jurassic Park] convinced a generation of casual moviegoers that they understood the risks of genetic engineering to be severe and untamable...." Well, from what I remember, it taught a generation that "those people are stupid and if they'd just done X, everything would have worked out unicorns and rainbows."
prionassembly 5y ago
> communicate the constraints they are missing without mocking them, humiliating them, and forcing them into a corner This. We need debate that's not about "dunking".

Moodles 5y ago

I'm kind of with your point but also not. You don't have to actually be a victim of cancer or even know anyone personally who has cancer, to help cure it. To say "it's privilege" is a weird way of phrasing it. It's just a person who needs to do better user research before building a product.

GavinMcG 5y ago
We're not talking about cancer. We're talking about things that involve human psychology and behavior. Privilege is why they didn't do "better user research": the person making the proposal doesn't even consider those they would impact.
- Moodles 5y ago
  > We're not talking about cancer. We're talking about things that involve human psychology and behavior. Yes, it's a slightly different field. I don't see how that changes the point. The point is that plenty of people who aren't first hand victims of something still come up with solutions for it. This is just an example of someone who didn't. I don't really see how framing it about privileged vs not privileged inventors is helpful. All that matters is the technology ideas and how best to come up with them. And we all agree user research is good.
  - GavinMcG 5y ago
    Bringing up privilege is important because someone who is aware of it can cut off this sort of mistake before they make them. We indeed agree that user research is good. So I'd imagine we agree that it's good to think "I should put the perspective and experiences of my users front and center." And that's exactly what it takes to not be privileged.
SavantIdiot 5y ago
I see what you're saying, but let me try to explain what I see as the difference between the two situations. Curing cancer is about biology, chemistry, etc. It literally does not require any experience having cancer as you stated. Just lots of research and college education. However, if you said you were going to write an app to cure "the mental anxiety associated with having cancer," and you've never had cancer, but in your mind the cure is to strap on VR goggles, isolate yourself and play minecraft, then yes, that would be "privilege". You're assuming you have the solution but you have zero lived experience. That's the difference as I see it. (Obviously I don't mean "you" as in you personally.)