8 ms·

You can actually do this now, without emulation: https://github.com/tpoechtrager/cctools-port https://github.com/tpoechtrager/cctools-port Zig are also working

You can actually do this now, without emulation: https://github.com/tpoechtrager/cctools-port https://github.com/tpoechtrager/cctools-port Zig are also working on it: https://zig.news/monthly/zig-monthly-august-2021-ios-support-tutorials-tree-sitter-a-pathtracer-and-more-4im8 https://zig.news/monthly/zig-monthly-august-2021-ios-support... The pioneer of software dictatorship will probably make this impossible or illegal as soon as it gains any traction though. And people will probably congratulate them for it in the name of "security".

colejohnson66 5y ago
As a “closed iOS” advocate, I personally believe the ability to do development outside of a macOS is a great idea. I’ve long wanted to make iOS apps, but I don’t have the money to shell out for a Mac. Yes, Hackintoshes are a thing, but you need certain hardware to do so, and even then, it’s still difficult (last I checked).
- zaptrem 5y ago
  For casual app development I just run MacOS in a free VMWare instance on my Windows machine. It has no graphics acceleration but otherwise works flawlessly.
  - dorfsmay 5y ago
    How do you load MacOS in VMWare? Where/how do you get the install media?
    - barkingcat 5y ago
      This has been possible for a long time. For the install media, Apple hosts them and will give you the dmg file for free. The only concern is the terms of the EULA so that's why the earlier poster says "for casual development" There are a lot of guides online, including "one command" shell/powershell scripts that will automatically pull down the right files for you, and use the vmware/virtualbox api to create the vm automatically, and patch the bootloader to get Catalina or Big Sur loading, etc - if past experience is any indication, people probably already have Monterey beta loading fine already. again, it's not a matter of "how" it's whether you (or Apple lawyers) care about the EULA.
      - sdefresne 5y ago
        Doesn't the EULA also prohibits hackintosh?
    - unnouinceput 5y ago
      in addition to what @barkingcat said, for vmware to be able to boot a macos virtual machine you'll need it to unlock it for that OS. Search for vmware unlocker is a free utility that depends on your vmware version, run it once and you're done.
  - eins1234 5y ago
    Anyone aware of any options for Hyper-V? Last time I tried this it was pretty impractical to have VMWare/VirtualBox co-exist with Hyper-V for things like Docker and WSL2, but maybe that has changed?
    - Mogzol 5y ago
      Newer versions of VMWare work under a Hyper-V host [1]. I'm not sure if macOS runs properly in that mode though. I also had some success a while back running macOS under WSL2 using KVM [2], though it was pretty buggy and a pain to set up. [1] https://blogs.vmware.com/workstation/2020/05/vmware-workstation-now-supports-hyper-v-mode.html https://blogs.vmware.com/workstation/2020/05/vmware-workstat... [2] https://github.com/kholia/OSX-KVM https://github.com/kholia/OSX-KVM
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    I did this with QEMU, the performance is pretty fantastic under Linux.
    - late2part 5y ago
      You ran/run modern macos in QEMU under linux? I didn't know that was doable...
      - smoldesu 5y ago
        It's very doable, it takes like 10 minutes if your internet is reasonably quick and if you're lucky you might even get GPU acceleration out of it. I used this to set mine up: https://github.com/foxlet/macOS-Simple-KVM https://github.com/foxlet/macOS-Simple-KVM
  - nine_k 5y ago
    IIRC, macOS EULA expressly requires that the OS be run on Apple hardware. If it's run in emulation (which is permitted), the host must run on Apple hardware anyway. Apple is not a software company, it's an electronic appliance company, like Samsung. Of course, apple won't go after individuals who violate this provision. But is a cloud vendor or a CI vendor tried to pull that off, Apple would smash them.
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      Are there any countries where this EULA term isn’t enforceable?
      - MinorTom 5y ago
        If you don't agree to the EULA you don't have a license to use MacOS at all, which means you downloading it is (in many countries) a crime. The question whether or not a EULA is enforcable is only relevant for products you bought which have software preinstalled - it is often argued under First Sale (and similar) that the EULA isn't applicable.
        toomuchtodo 5y ago
        Do you have any citations you can provide in this regard?
- jakeinspace 5y ago
  I've never been an iOS or Mac developer, but I have had a few 5,1 Mac Pros. The release of m1 mac minis pretty much killed the used market for those, but you may still be able to find one for cheap. I was able to find a few 12-core 24-thread dual xeon models for around $250, but had to be patient. Add in 64GB of ECC RAM and an SSD upgrade, to Mojave or Catalina, and you have a beefy enough development system for around $500. Those 12c/24t will get smoked by an m1 mini for a lot of tasks, but if memory matters then it's probably still the best bang for the buck. Also, you'll need to find a GPU....
  - bluedino 5y ago
    Memory or storage. A couple big SATA drives in a Mac Pro work well for certain uses cases.
- nbzso 5y ago
  Actually it is easy to build Hackintoshes, even with AMD. Catalina is running stable with Apple ID and all the bells and whistles. In the past when Apple ignored updating Mac Pro Trashcan for several years, we have build a monstrous PC with Hackintosh to run FinalCut. Search for Open Core Catalina.
  - s_dev 5y ago
    The problem is mac OS now uses M series chips. You'd be developing legacy code.
    - usui 5y ago
      It's not legacy code until the day Apple definitively axes Intel models. The writing is on the wall yes, but they are still selling Intel Macs and they are not deprecated yet. The majority of development still happens on Intel Macs. I built an 11th-gen Rocket Lake 128GB Hackintosh with Thunderbolt Display support+2 LED Cinema Display recently and it's been great. Thunderbolt 3 support on a Hackintosh has been nice. Just hoping for Thunderbolt 4/Maple Ridge drivers/11th-gen iGPU drivers if ever.
      - IncRnd 5y ago
        What motherboard/gpu did you use for that?
        usui 5y ago
        Gigabyte Z590 Vision D
        IncRnd 5y ago
        Thank you.
        usui 5y ago
        Forgot to mention it's a Radeon R9 270, quite old. Might want to upgrade to Radeon 6900 XT in the future if 8K monitor on macOS becomes possible
- milesvp 5y ago
  I can appreciate if this is too much money for you, but I recently bought a 2014 macmini i7 16GB and 512SSD on ebay for $440 shipped to my door. I needed something that could handle bigsur for some app development, and that was the best $/effort solution I found. Add another ~60 for a usb switch and cables, and I can easily switch between my primary and mac. In general, there's a pretty good second hand market for macminis, and if you shop around you can probably get something usable for under $350 shipped.
saagarjha 5y ago
Building apps without the use of Apple’s SDK is already considered to be against the developer program terms.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
  That's funny. It's against my terms to not use my software!
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Razengan 5y ago
> The pioneer of software dictatorship Consoles were doing that shit way before, unless you redefine what counts as “software” or “dictatorship”
- kelnos 5y ago
  I do think consoles should be required to be open (as I think all phones should be), but I am sympathetic to the idea that consoles are somehow in a different class than phones or desktop/laptop computers. Consoles feel like purpose-built game machines, whereas phones feel like general purpose computers, albeit small ones. Really, though, I don't have a good reason why I think it might be ok to lock down a purpose-built game machine. So maybe that's just not ok either.
setpatchaddress 5y ago
> The pioneer of software dictatorship will probably make this impossible or illegal as soon as it gains any traction though What does Microsoft have to do with this?

colejohnson66 5y ago

As a “closed iOS” advocate, I personally believe the ability to do development outside of a macOS is a great idea. I’ve long wanted to make iOS apps, but I don’t have the money to shell out for a Mac. Yes, Hackintoshes are a thing, but you need certain hardware to do so, and even then, it’s still difficult (last I checked).

zaptrem 5y ago
For casual app development I just run MacOS in a free VMWare instance on my Windows machine. It has no graphics acceleration but otherwise works flawlessly.
- dorfsmay 5y ago
  How do you load MacOS in VMWare? Where/how do you get the install media?
  - barkingcat 5y ago
    This has been possible for a long time. For the install media, Apple hosts them and will give you the dmg file for free. The only concern is the terms of the EULA so that's why the earlier poster says "for casual development" There are a lot of guides online, including "one command" shell/powershell scripts that will automatically pull down the right files for you, and use the vmware/virtualbox api to create the vm automatically, and patch the bootloader to get Catalina or Big Sur loading, etc - if past experience is any indication, people probably already have Monterey beta loading fine already. again, it's not a matter of "how" it's whether you (or Apple lawyers) care about the EULA.
    - sdefresne 5y ago
      Doesn't the EULA also prohibits hackintosh?
  - unnouinceput 5y ago
    in addition to what @barkingcat said, for vmware to be able to boot a macos virtual machine you'll need it to unlock it for that OS. Search for vmware unlocker is a free utility that depends on your vmware version, run it once and you're done.
- eins1234 5y ago
  Anyone aware of any options for Hyper-V? Last time I tried this it was pretty impractical to have VMWare/VirtualBox co-exist with Hyper-V for things like Docker and WSL2, but maybe that has changed?
  - Mogzol 5y ago
    Newer versions of VMWare work under a Hyper-V host [1]. I'm not sure if macOS runs properly in that mode though. I also had some success a while back running macOS under WSL2 using KVM [2], though it was pretty buggy and a pain to set up. [1] https://blogs.vmware.com/workstation/2020/05/vmware-workstation-now-supports-hyper-v-mode.html https://blogs.vmware.com/workstation/2020/05/vmware-workstat... [2] https://github.com/kholia/OSX-KVM https://github.com/kholia/OSX-KVM
- smoldesu 5y ago
  I did this with QEMU, the performance is pretty fantastic under Linux.
  - late2part 5y ago
    You ran/run modern macos in QEMU under linux? I didn't know that was doable...
    - smoldesu 5y ago
      It's very doable, it takes like 10 minutes if your internet is reasonably quick and if you're lucky you might even get GPU acceleration out of it. I used this to set mine up: https://github.com/foxlet/macOS-Simple-KVM https://github.com/foxlet/macOS-Simple-KVM
- nine_k 5y ago
  IIRC, macOS EULA expressly requires that the OS be run on Apple hardware. If it's run in emulation (which is permitted), the host must run on Apple hardware anyway. Apple is not a software company, it's an electronic appliance company, like Samsung. Of course, apple won't go after individuals who violate this provision. But is a cloud vendor or a CI vendor tried to pull that off, Apple would smash them.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Are there any countries where this EULA term isn’t enforceable?
    - MinorTom 5y ago
      If you don't agree to the EULA you don't have a license to use MacOS at all, which means you downloading it is (in many countries) a crime. The question whether or not a EULA is enforcable is only relevant for products you bought which have software preinstalled - it is often argued under First Sale (and similar) that the EULA isn't applicable.
      - toomuchtodo 5y ago
        Do you have any citations you can provide in this regard?
jakeinspace 5y ago
I've never been an iOS or Mac developer, but I have had a few 5,1 Mac Pros. The release of m1 mac minis pretty much killed the used market for those, but you may still be able to find one for cheap. I was able to find a few 12-core 24-thread dual xeon models for around $250, but had to be patient. Add in 64GB of ECC RAM and an SSD upgrade, to Mojave or Catalina, and you have a beefy enough development system for around $500. Those 12c/24t will get smoked by an m1 mini for a lot of tasks, but if memory matters then it's probably still the best bang for the buck. Also, you'll need to find a GPU....
- bluedino 5y ago
  Memory or storage. A couple big SATA drives in a Mac Pro work well for certain uses cases.
nbzso 5y ago
Actually it is easy to build Hackintoshes, even with AMD. Catalina is running stable with Apple ID and all the bells and whistles. In the past when Apple ignored updating Mac Pro Trashcan for several years, we have build a monstrous PC with Hackintosh to run FinalCut. Search for Open Core Catalina.
- s_dev 5y ago
  The problem is mac OS now uses M series chips. You'd be developing legacy code.
  - usui 5y ago
    It's not legacy code until the day Apple definitively axes Intel models. The writing is on the wall yes, but they are still selling Intel Macs and they are not deprecated yet. The majority of development still happens on Intel Macs. I built an 11th-gen Rocket Lake 128GB Hackintosh with Thunderbolt Display support+2 LED Cinema Display recently and it's been great. Thunderbolt 3 support on a Hackintosh has been nice. Just hoping for Thunderbolt 4/Maple Ridge drivers/11th-gen iGPU drivers if ever.
    - IncRnd 5y ago
      What motherboard/gpu did you use for that?
      - usui 5y ago
        Gigabyte Z590 Vision D
        IncRnd 5y ago
        Thank you.
        usui 5y ago
        Forgot to mention it's a Radeon R9 270, quite old. Might want to upgrade to Radeon 6900 XT in the future if 8K monitor on macOS becomes possible
milesvp 5y ago
I can appreciate if this is too much money for you, but I recently bought a 2014 macmini i7 16GB and 512SSD on ebay for $440 shipped to my door. I needed something that could handle bigsur for some app development, and that was the best $/effort solution I found. Add another ~60 for a usb switch and cables, and I can easily switch between my primary and mac. In general, there's a pretty good second hand market for macminis, and if you shop around you can probably get something usable for under $350 shipped.

saagarjha 5y ago

Building apps without the use of Apple’s SDK is already considered to be against the developer program terms.

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
That's funny. It's against my terms to not use my software!

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Razengan 5y ago

> The pioneer of software dictatorship Consoles were doing that shit way before, unless you redefine what counts as “software” or “dictatorship”

kelnos 5y ago
I do think consoles should be required to be open (as I think all phones should be), but I am sympathetic to the idea that consoles are somehow in a different class than phones or desktop/laptop computers. Consoles feel like purpose-built game machines, whereas phones feel like general purpose computers, albeit small ones. Really, though, I don't have a good reason why I think it might be ok to lock down a purpose-built game machine. So maybe that's just not ok either.

setpatchaddress 5y ago

> The pioneer of software dictatorship will probably make this impossible or illegal as soon as it gains any traction though What does Microsoft have to do with this?