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Ask HN: Client wrote returned check for over $10,000. How to report him?

55 points by badclient 15y ago

I did work for a client who seemed legit. I worked day and night with him for 30 days. His check to me returned. He paid menagain and the check returned again. This was few weeks ago, since I have found many more people(including his own lawyers) who remain unpaid by him. He's got default judgements against him--though most people are having a hard time collecting $ despite the judgements. Most importantly, he has been convicted at least once in past for writing non sufficient funds check. I am in NYC while he is based in California. How can I try and get a criminal case going against him? Do I goto NYPD? The DA?

pbreit 15y ago
This is generally not a criminal thing so I'm not sure the police or DA would get involved. You might consider small claims court or maybe a collections agency. Have you turned over whatever you were contacted to do? So it's a real person who is actually conducting some sort of business? I suppose there's an outside chance you might be get some funds but doesn't sound too good. As you know now, the research would have been better performed in the beginning.
- badclient 15y ago
  Knowingly writing a check with non sufficient funds is criminal in most places. Yeah my work is up and live. He's on the record with complimenting it. There is no way you can search thousands of court databases each time you take on a client. I just ran into someone who told me which dbs to search to pull up dirt on him.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - jeffreymcmanus 15y ago
    It's not your job to "pull up dirt on him". Writing bad checks is a criminal offense (in both California and New York) and pursuing people who do this is the job of the district attorney. That should be your next stop.
    - badclient 15y ago
      That's in a perfect world. Most DA offices are overworked and have a lot of discretion it seems. And for a charge like this, claiming I got a returned check from someone with past criminal record for it can be the difference between being taken serious and being passed. San Frnacisco DA's office took almost a week to return my call. It went to VM. Been a week and I'm still waiting for the return call.
      - bugsy 15y ago
        Call them every day and politely but firmly ask how it is going. In California, in addition to the check crime, theft of property or services above $950 is "Grand Theft". Also post his name and a scan of the check and the contract on the internet. Be sure everything you state is factual. Also, since you have not been paid, you have a civil claim against him for copyright violation. File a take down notice with his site's host. If you want your money back, you will have to go out to California, get a claim against him, then locate and seize his property for the debt if you can. That's going to cost you more than $10,000 to do of course, so whether you get justice is up to you. Just don't expect you'll ever see that $10,000, the value of that work is gone. It's possible you have a signed contract stating that the venue for disputes is your state of New York. If so, that is easy to get a ruling against him since it's unlikely he'll show up for the hearing and you'll get a default judgement. Then you take that judgement to California and try to locate assets to seize. Since you didn't mention this, it is likely you have no such contract and you'll probably need to fight the whole thing out on his turf. In the future be sure to specify that all legal conflicts must happen in your area. Also very important. In the future you do not do one day of work until you have 1/3 cash up front. The contract then specifies you get the second 1/3 at a key milestone, and then the final 1/3 when you actually transfer the code. If you had done this (which is very standard with projects for unknown clients) then you'd only be out $3333 right now.
        badclient 15y ago
        I am working on launching a site that exposes him by stating facts and linking to his past/present litigation and criminal record. At this point I've cut my losses and understand I may never see the money. I am pretty sure I can get a civil judgement against him going by his history of not showing up. However, as you said it's still going to be a nightmare trying to enforce the judgement. I mean jeez his own lawyers who he didn't pay got judgements but aren't able to collect funds. I'll keep pushing the DA's office. Unfortunately their VM says not to leave repeated messages so I don't want to annoy them. About taking 1/3 advance, I donno how people do this without losing a lot business. Majority of my legit clients would not be able to pay 1/3rd in advance and just move on. In fact with agency work it's standard to wait 90 days for payment.
  - EToS 15y ago
    I'd definitely take the work down if it hasnt already.. and if legal action is your next step, use every opportunity to document this relationship (follow all emails up with recorded mail that he has to sign for etc)
    - benatkin 15y ago
      Sounds like a great idea if you want revenge in the short term and don't mind hassle and risk. I agree with this poster. Better to not give them any opportunity to countersue no matter how ridiculous a countersuit it would be. http://freelanceswitch.com/clients/what-to-do-when-a-client-doesnt-pay-in-a-timely-manner/#comment-48417 http://freelanceswitch.com/clients/what-to-do-when-a-client-...
      - badclient 15y ago
        Agreed. Not doing that.
      - mattmanser 15y ago
        Because some random person on the internet says don't? If you're going to cite someone lets have someone with a little more credibility.
  - pbreit 15y ago
    But it's almost impossible and quite expensive to get a criminal verdict. That it was interstate makes it even more difficult.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
- nikcub 15y ago
  you must never watch 'cops'
  - badclient 15y ago
    Made me chuckle. Fav childhood show.
- pbreit 15y ago
  Why the downvotes? I did not say it was not criminal, just that it wasn't something that law enforcement would likely pursue.
originalgeek 15y ago
Some of what you are reading out here actually is not true. In California, willfully writing a bad check can make the payer liable for 3 times the face value. My suggestion: consult an attorney, not the internet.
philiphodgen 15y ago
In California this is a criminal offense and the DA for the County where he is will have a bounced check unit. Contact the DA. It is a slam dunk. Do. Not. Threaten. To. Go. To. The. DA. "I'm going to the DA if you don't pay me" is stoopit. That's blackmail and you will be the one in trouble not him. Just file charges.
- badclient 15y ago
  Thanks. The question is which DA to contact. His company is registered with a San Francisco address while most of his past cases are in Marin County. Also, I'm in NYC.
  - aaronblohowiak 15y ago
    SF, CA
- ScottBurson 15y ago
  IANAL, but I don't see how this fits the legal definition of blackmail, which, as I understand it, requires that the blackmailer not have a right to the property they are attempting to extort from the victim. Creditors routinely threaten to report debtors to the credit bureaus -- is that blackmail?? I think if you said "I'm going to the DA if you don't pay me double the amount you owe me", that would be blackmail. Admittedly, the suggestion to just go ahead and file charges doesn't seem like bad advice to me.
  - srl 15y ago
    [IANAL] Of course, it's also blackmail to threaten to approach the police about crime B if crime A is not rectified - that A is a crime is irrelevant. Not that it's applicable here.
- bryanlarsen 15y ago
  IANAL, but I have been way too intimately involved in something. There are many types of threats that can be considered criminal harassment, but threatening to call the cops is not one of them (at least in Canada). I presume the same would apply to blackmail. Calling the cops is what you're supposed to do, so threatening to do what you're supposed to do should not be a crime. It might be different if you were trying to collect something that wasn't yours, but... Another thing I learned was to never accept any sort of repayment scheme. Once you do that, it then becomes a civil matter rather than a criminal matter. Again, I'm not a lawyer, and this may apply to Canada only.
Joakal 15y ago
Was it work for an one-time on-completion payment? Sorry to hear.
- aaronblohowiak 15y ago
  IANAL, but I believe that in writing the cheque and giving it to the other person, you are acknowledging the debt owed.
michaelpinto 15y ago
Don't guess, talk to a lawyer!
- tatsuke95 15y ago
  Exactly. If you're in business you need to have a solid team around you. That includes a lawyer you can talk to. It's important, for just these matters.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
biturd 15y ago
What are his initials to his name? This sounds all to familiar, is the correct area etc. I was burned for 20K. The man was a professional bad debtor. He built a relationship with me for 6 months, having me do work that he initially paid for in cash or check, which always worked fine. Over time, the jobs got larger, and more costly, and we moved to 30 day terms. I never bothered with a credit check because he built a relationship that started on pre-pay cash. His last job was to hit me with the 20K job. Bad check and it was all over. What really sucked about this job was it was not all labor, and I had employees do the labor which also cost me. My cost of goods on this job was 75% of the total, which I had to pay to my vendors. I sued him in small claims for the max amount in my state. I sued him two times by breaking the job into two invoices so I could try to approach the total amount owed. Merely serving him took weeks and required I hire a pretty ruthless process server. He was good at hiding out. I received judgement and won the case. He never paid. I sent him to a collection agency who called me back in a day to tell me they knew of him well. There was and is no way to collect. His son has the same name as him, which is part of his scam. He is "married" or at least with the same woman for decades. All assets are in her name, but since they are not married there are no mutual assets to have liened or seized. The only thing I could have done different, perhaps with more research, would be to have a sheriff on the courthouse to take his car on the spot. That may not be possible, and really depends on the circumstances. In the end, the only thing I was able to do was harass him on the phone and dig through the work I had done, locating the people he resold my work to and warn them to cancel all payments. Once of his clients was nice enough to hold payment back for a time and give it to me as long as there were no legal repercussions coming from the scammer. His initials are T.W. in case it is the same person. I still hold judgement to him this day. If he ever opens a bank, buys a house, gets a credit card, or does anything that can be attached as far as funds, I will get in a line and maybe get paid after all the others are paid in the order in which he screwed them. This will end up being a lesson learned. Sorry to hear about this for you.
- badclient 15y ago
  Different guy. But almost as crazy. I'm working to build a site exposing him and will post here. Hopefully a few HNers will blog about it and help other web devs/designers stay away from him. This guy is such a scumbag he subcontracts out the work and I know for a fact the original client paid him the money. He doesn't want to pay me a fraction of what he probably got paid.
nfm 15y ago
I know this probably isn't helpful to hear at this stage, but I'm going to say it anyway for everyone's benefit. We've learned this lesson the hard way, but fortunately didn't have to use all of the following advice. Always take a part payment up front before starting work. Between 30% and 50% is a fairly standard and safe amount. Always take another part payment after demonstrating your progress. Ideally upon final delivery the balance to be paid for your work should be less than 30%. If clients are unhappy about paying you up front, you need to ask yourself why they're unwilling to pay anything to start, when they will be paying $10k to you in the very near future. If they don't trust you, they'll work with someone else. You need to be able to trust them too, and taking a part payment up front is often the quickest way for you to learn that they are trustworthy. When a client isn't able to pay, you should try and negotiate payment in full over time. Regular, small payments give them a chance to pay off their other creditors and give you regular indication that they're trying to pay you back. If they refuse to pay, or miss their regular repayments, don't be afraid to go to a debt collector. Make this clear when you are negotiating the payment schedule. At this stage, any money you can get back (less the often expensive debt collection fees) is a bonus. Even if the amount is paid back in full, we make it a rule not to work for this client again. For an amount this large, you should definitely talk to a lawyer. Keep a close eye on your cashflow over the next few months. Best of luck recovering the payment!
- badclient 15y ago
  As I've stated below, I'd lose majority of my clients if I required 30% upfront payment. Truth is when you work with agencies and corporations, they are usually not willing to pay in advance. And yet they provide me with bulk of the work. This scumbag operates behind a sham agency. He's presented at conferences such as ad:tech giving him te SEO appearance that he is legit. It's when you dig deeper and search the court databases that you learn the truth.
  - gte910h 15y ago
    I've found a 20% deposit be an issue for no corporation (high fours to high five figures)
  - 15y ago
gte910h 15y ago
You have a high chance of being able to use a DMCA request to take down the work as well. If he's scamming instead of not actually having money, this may compel payment.
mark_l_watson 15y ago
I have only been stiffed once (and that for a very small amount of money that the client said was not worth his time to write a check, so he just thanked me - not the result I wanted!) So I lack direct experience related to your case, but even with a 12 year time span of not having problems with customers paying, I still ask new customers for a small up front payment (they know who I am, but in many cases I don't know them), and I invoice frequently. If anyone ever wants to pay every month, I tell them that I enjoy getting paid frequently: it is always nice getting a notification of a wire transfer, a check in the mail, or PayPal payments. Sorry about what happened to you - that is a bummer!
DomainNoob 15y ago
The legality of 'sucks sites' is well established. Perhaps with a little help from HN, an SEO advantage could be gained that would bury whatever legit sites he's operating.
- badclient 15y ago
  That's the plan. I'll make another post when the site is up and perhaps a few folks won't mind blogging/tweeting to keep future devs/designers from being scammed by this guy.

adammichaelc 15y ago

(Not legal advice, just my opinion) Not true. It would only be blackmail if he didn't legally owe the money. Threatening to go to the DA is very appropriate. In fact, it's what you should do so that he knows how serious it is. I would say something like, "If there's not a cashier's check in my hand by x date, I will file criminal charges with the DA." It would be the polite thing to do, so that he's not blindsided with a criminal record.

chops 15y ago
It would be the polite thing to do, so that he's not blindsided with a criminal record. Politeness is not warranted in this situation. This guy sounds like a defacto asshole and deserves to be in jail.
- badclient 15y ago
  Out of politeness, I told the guy that date x would be the last day I would be available to do any minor fixes or work for him due to continued non-payment. What does he do? Use that against me to argue that the project didn't really finish until the date in my courtesy email and that he's got another few days to pay me and make good on the returned checks. Of course his own arbitrary deadline for when payment is due have long come and gone with no payment. And don't even get me started about the returned checks impact on me financially. My account went from positive ~4k to about -5,900. My checking account is couple weeks from being reported if I don't get in the pos. I'm bouncing back but wanna do everything possible to keep others from going through the same shit. More on that soon as I launch a site warning others of this.
thucydides 15y ago
Not correct. If you threaten to expose a crime unless you are paid money, you have committed blackmail. It is blackmail even if you have a legal right to demand the money. Note that each act separately is fine: you can demand money; you can threaten to report a crime. You just can't make the report conditional on receiving money.
- erydo 15y ago
  > If you threaten to expose a crime unless you are paid money, you have committed blackmail. That might make sense if the crime in question weren't the non-payment of that money. Saying, "If you don't pay what you owe, I'll report you" doesn't sound like it could possibly be blackmail. There are a lot of IANALs here, I'd love to hear an actual lawyer comment on this.
  - thucydides 15y ago
    I'm not quite a lawyer. I represented criminal defendants throughout my third year of law school. I earned my Juris Doctor in May and will hear if I passed the Maryland bar in November.
  - thucydides 15y ago
    "I try to unravel the paradox [of blackmail] and provide a coherent basis for distinguishing legitimate from illegitimate threats. In brief, I argue that the key to the wrongfulness of the blackmail transaction is its triangular structure. The transaction implicitly involves not only the blackmailer and his victim but always a third party as well. This third party may be, for example, the victim's spouse or employer, the authorities or even the public at large. When a blackmailer tries to use his right to release damaging information, he is threatening to tell others. If the blackmail victim pays the blackmailer, it is to avoid the harm that those others would inflict. Thus blackmail is a way that one person requests something in return for suppressing the actual or potential interests of others. To get what he wants, the blackmailer uses leverage that is less his than someone else's. Selling the right to go to the police involves suppressing the state's interests. Selling the right to tell a tort victim who committed the tort involves suppressing the tort victim's interests. And selling the right to inform others of embarrassing (but legal) behavior involves suppressing the interests of those other people." James Lindgren, Unraveling the Paradox of Blackmail, 84 Colum. L. Rev. 670, 672 (1984)
    - erydo 15y ago
      That still doesn't quite answer the question: If the money is paid, there is no crime to begin with. The transfer isn't selling the right to go to the authorities, it's resolving the crime of non-payment in the first place.
  - philiphodgen 15y ago
    I am an actual lawyer. Threats mean you're using the threat of police action (criminal procedures) to gain an advantage in a civil dispute. Fuck the civil dispute ("You owe me money". "No I don't"). This guy is past that. Badclient has a criminal beef with the bad guy in SF, in addition to the civil dispute. Two separate things going on. Civil. Criminal. Don't mix them up. Strategically you don't write demand letters. They're a waste of time. I refuse to write them for clients. Just act. Step 1, the bazooka. (Step 2 is that a judge orders restitution under pain of jail if the bad guy doesn't pay). So, badclient, tomorrow is Monday. Load your bazooka.