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I'm sure people have said this countless time but here it is: Cold War mentality. I'm from a small country. You would think that countries like us tend to have

by nsonha 5y ago

I'm sure people have said this countless time but here it is: Cold War mentality. I'm from a small country. You would think that countries like us tend to have to pick a side but since a very young age, in our textbook, we're taught that the world is no longer the place it used to be and there are no such things as friends nor enemies. Honestly all the propaganda from the US about Russia caring so much and always tries to undermine them and how their politics are fuelled by their policies toward "the enemy", whether that's China or the Middle East, sounds stupid to me. Australia is the same, all they do is whining about China instead of, you know, build a stronger country.

mytailorisrich 5y ago
It seems to me, reading on the relation between Australia and China, that Australia tends to have a superiority complex. Australia is a country of 25 million: they are no match to China or any other major powers, so whilst it is of course right for them to defend their interests I don't see how their current aggressive rhetoric can lead to anything positive.
- ben-gy 5y ago
  It’s a lot more strategically complex than that. Fo example, America manages the majority of its signals intelligence for a large chunk of the Asian content through various faculties such as pine gap [1]. You’d be foolish to postulate that geopolitically charged agendas are driven by a simple explanation such as “a superiority complex”. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Gap?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Gap?wprov=sfti1 https://maps.apple.com/?ll=-23.799000,133.737000&q=Pine%20Gap&_ext=EiQpjMzNQ4vMN8Axljf9gJW3YEA5jMzNQ4vMN8BBljf9gJW3YEA%3D https://maps.apple.com/?ll=-23.799000,133.737000&q=Pine%20Ga...
  - mytailorisrich 5y ago
    Of course the US are powerful, and in fact pretty much control Australia, which is indeed a small country. Australia is getting a bit ahead of itself if they think they are a match for China. I think Australia would be foolish to believe that being best bud with the playground's biggest bully means that they can freely do as they please and that it is useless for them to remain civil to others.
    - ben-gy 5y ago
      Your statement is contradictory - on one hand you agree that the US values Australia therefore justifying their decision for this agreement, and on the other you say Australia is independently matching itself to China - it’s not appropriate or correct to selectively choose parts of either statement because they are are in fact mutually exclusive relative to your argument. Either Australia is a puppet of the US and therefore by postering towards China it is not an AU vs CN issues but instead a US vs CN (via AU) issue or somehow Australia has managed to convince US to give them top secret technology and have independently decided to tackle CN. Over to you - which is it?
      - mytailorisrich 5y ago
        Australia is a puppet of the US and at the same time is having a "complex of superiority" (which permeates the West as a whole, to be fair), because who are those 'Chinamen', anyway? Nothing contradictory, there are several aspects at play, but I am foolish as you say. Considering the history of Australia the hypocrisy is grotesque, and this just shows that the bad old habits die hard.
- mickotron 5y ago
  Australia doesn't have an independent foreign policy. This deal just shows who is in who's pocket. Australia has no choice because it can't defend itself. It has no military capability to defend against any enemy. It means we Australians are destined to follow the US again into whatever conflict the US finds itself in. Because if we don't, we're on our own, and a very big (geographically) and soft target.
  - mytailorisrich 5y ago
    You're right but I don't think that this implies that they have no choice but to be an American 'protectorate'. It obviously used to be a British colony (and obviously is still formally part of the British Realm) and IMHO effectively switched to being an American 'protectorate' during WWII.
    - sotruesotrue 5y ago
      Having the technology to sink the massive kind of surface fleet an adversary needs to reach Australia, guarantees Australian freedom, independence and self determination. Australia has friends in the world with no desire or interest in oppressing them.
  - marcus_holmes 5y ago
    I've had this discussion a few times. I don't think we live in the same world any more, where physical invasion of country is advantageous. What exactly are we defending against? I just don't see the Chinese trying to invade and control Australia. What would they get from that? All the resources? They already get those - and it's a lot cheaper to just buy them than it would be to keep a hostile invading army in place to dig them up themselves. China even operates some mines on Australian soil already (with all-Chinese staff, flown in direct from China). What on earth could they take from us that we won't sell them freely? Australia is a US naval/supply/intelligence base, and that's it. The only militarily interesting targets in the country are owned by the US. I think the Kiwis got the right idea here. The only way to win this game is to not play.
    - 5y ago
drumhead 5y ago
Its best to stop bullies well before they have a chance to start causing real trouble. That was a lesson learnt the hard way in the 1930s. If you mean by whining, protesting about the treatment of minorities in China, then you may have different values to Australia.
- nsonha 5y ago
  Whining as in complaining about China having the better end of the deals that Australia itself signed. Well, stop being incompetent and look out for your OWN interests then. Thanks for the alienating message I'm not surprised at all.
  - drumhead 5y ago
    "Cold War Mentality", thats a Chinese embassy talking point.....
    - nsonha 5y ago
      does it matter? I'm supposed to invent new terminologies? I'm not pro China. I'm just calling bullshit governments instead of addressing their economic policies that China takes advantage of, chooses to go the military route instead. The world no longer works that way. If you don't like someone being so successful, do better than them, get the better end of the deal. Don't go to your gangster friend and whine like a loser.
      - DisjointedHunt 5y ago
        China has been known to bribe individuals and coerce them with stated ramifications to their families in China to steal secrets of other nations as well as sign deals that would be otherwise illogical. Is this the “gangster” mentality you refer to? Chinas economic rise has come through a generous allocation of an “emerging economy” status under many provisions at the WTO and other international organizations. Are you in favor of other countries kicking them out?
cm2187 5y ago
If almost every country in Asia sees China as a threat, then it is most likely that it is actually a threat. And Xi Jinping is increasingly looking like a new Mao, which is bad news both abroad and domestically.
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  China is massively bigger than all of its Asian neighbours except India. That's a risk in itself as they may want to avoid becoming satellite states because of that. It's a bit like a small country next to the US...
  - cm2187 5y ago
    Well India sees China as a threat. And outside of Cuba, I don’t see a lot of concern from being in the sphere of influence of the US.
    - roca 5y ago
      Exactly. The USA has its issues but it has great relations with its neighbours (minus Cuba), while on the other hand China's big neighbours all see China as a threat (except perhaps for Russia). Seems to me it boils down to the CCP being a ruthless totalitarian regime headed by a dictator-for-life with an increasingly aggressive foreign policy (exhibit A: constant offensive cyberwarfare). Its neighbours can never be comfortable with that.
      - cm2187 5y ago
        I think the exception is not Russia but Pakistan.
      - brnt 5y ago
        It understandibly doesnt make many headlines, but the Russians are hemoraging resources, technology and yes, even territory to keep the peace with China. They are not friends, the are being used.

by nsonha 5y ago

mytailorisrich 5y ago

It seems to me, reading on the relation between Australia and China, that Australia tends to have a superiority complex. Australia is a country of 25 million: they are no match to China or any other major powers, so whilst it is of course right for them to defend their interests I don't see how their current aggressive rhetoric can lead to anything positive.

ben-gy 5y ago
It’s a lot more strategically complex than that. Fo example, America manages the majority of its signals intelligence for a large chunk of the Asian content through various faculties such as pine gap [1]. You’d be foolish to postulate that geopolitically charged agendas are driven by a simple explanation such as “a superiority complex”. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Gap?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Gap?wprov=sfti1 https://maps.apple.com/?ll=-23.799000,133.737000&q=Pine%20Gap&_ext=EiQpjMzNQ4vMN8Axljf9gJW3YEA5jMzNQ4vMN8BBljf9gJW3YEA%3D https://maps.apple.com/?ll=-23.799000,133.737000&q=Pine%20Ga...
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  Of course the US are powerful, and in fact pretty much control Australia, which is indeed a small country. Australia is getting a bit ahead of itself if they think they are a match for China. I think Australia would be foolish to believe that being best bud with the playground's biggest bully means that they can freely do as they please and that it is useless for them to remain civil to others.
  - ben-gy 5y ago
    Your statement is contradictory - on one hand you agree that the US values Australia therefore justifying their decision for this agreement, and on the other you say Australia is independently matching itself to China - it’s not appropriate or correct to selectively choose parts of either statement because they are are in fact mutually exclusive relative to your argument. Either Australia is a puppet of the US and therefore by postering towards China it is not an AU vs CN issues but instead a US vs CN (via AU) issue or somehow Australia has managed to convince US to give them top secret technology and have independently decided to tackle CN. Over to you - which is it?
    - mytailorisrich 5y ago
      Australia is a puppet of the US and at the same time is having a "complex of superiority" (which permeates the West as a whole, to be fair), because who are those 'Chinamen', anyway? Nothing contradictory, there are several aspects at play, but I am foolish as you say. Considering the history of Australia the hypocrisy is grotesque, and this just shows that the bad old habits die hard.
mickotron 5y ago
Australia doesn't have an independent foreign policy. This deal just shows who is in who's pocket. Australia has no choice because it can't defend itself. It has no military capability to defend against any enemy. It means we Australians are destined to follow the US again into whatever conflict the US finds itself in. Because if we don't, we're on our own, and a very big (geographically) and soft target.
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  You're right but I don't think that this implies that they have no choice but to be an American 'protectorate'. It obviously used to be a British colony (and obviously is still formally part of the British Realm) and IMHO effectively switched to being an American 'protectorate' during WWII.
  - sotruesotrue 5y ago
    Having the technology to sink the massive kind of surface fleet an adversary needs to reach Australia, guarantees Australian freedom, independence and self determination. Australia has friends in the world with no desire or interest in oppressing them.
- marcus_holmes 5y ago
  I've had this discussion a few times. I don't think we live in the same world any more, where physical invasion of country is advantageous. What exactly are we defending against? I just don't see the Chinese trying to invade and control Australia. What would they get from that? All the resources? They already get those - and it's a lot cheaper to just buy them than it would be to keep a hostile invading army in place to dig them up themselves. China even operates some mines on Australian soil already (with all-Chinese staff, flown in direct from China). What on earth could they take from us that we won't sell them freely? Australia is a US naval/supply/intelligence base, and that's it. The only militarily interesting targets in the country are owned by the US. I think the Kiwis got the right idea here. The only way to win this game is to not play.
  - 5y ago

drumhead 5y ago

Its best to stop bullies well before they have a chance to start causing real trouble. That was a lesson learnt the hard way in the 1930s. If you mean by whining, protesting about the treatment of minorities in China, then you may have different values to Australia.

nsonha 5y ago
Whining as in complaining about China having the better end of the deals that Australia itself signed. Well, stop being incompetent and look out for your OWN interests then. Thanks for the alienating message I'm not surprised at all.
- drumhead 5y ago
  "Cold War Mentality", thats a Chinese embassy talking point.....
  - nsonha 5y ago
    does it matter? I'm supposed to invent new terminologies? I'm not pro China. I'm just calling bullshit governments instead of addressing their economic policies that China takes advantage of, chooses to go the military route instead. The world no longer works that way. If you don't like someone being so successful, do better than them, get the better end of the deal. Don't go to your gangster friend and whine like a loser.
    - DisjointedHunt 5y ago
      China has been known to bribe individuals and coerce them with stated ramifications to their families in China to steal secrets of other nations as well as sign deals that would be otherwise illogical. Is this the “gangster” mentality you refer to? Chinas economic rise has come through a generous allocation of an “emerging economy” status under many provisions at the WTO and other international organizations. Are you in favor of other countries kicking them out?

cm2187 5y ago

If almost every country in Asia sees China as a threat, then it is most likely that it is actually a threat. And Xi Jinping is increasingly looking like a new Mao, which is bad news both abroad and domestically.

mytailorisrich 5y ago
China is massively bigger than all of its Asian neighbours except India. That's a risk in itself as they may want to avoid becoming satellite states because of that. It's a bit like a small country next to the US...
- cm2187 5y ago
  Well India sees China as a threat. And outside of Cuba, I don’t see a lot of concern from being in the sphere of influence of the US.
  - roca 5y ago
    Exactly. The USA has its issues but it has great relations with its neighbours (minus Cuba), while on the other hand China's big neighbours all see China as a threat (except perhaps for Russia). Seems to me it boils down to the CCP being a ruthless totalitarian regime headed by a dictator-for-life with an increasingly aggressive foreign policy (exhibit A: constant offensive cyberwarfare). Its neighbours can never be comfortable with that.
    - cm2187 5y ago
      I think the exception is not Russia but Pakistan.
    - brnt 5y ago
      It understandibly doesnt make many headlines, but the Russians are hemoraging resources, technology and yes, even territory to keep the peace with China. They are not friends, the are being used.