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> I like to think that peoples' honor is not contingent on their estimation of the honor of their colleagues. You might want to rethink that assumption, becaus

> I like to think that peoples' honor is not contingent on their estimation of the honor of their colleagues. You might want to rethink that assumption, because overwhelming evidence suggests that people's honour is contingent of their estimation of the honour of their peers. See the Golden Balls TV show, where the two remaining participants at the end are asked to "split or steal". Turned out people are more likely to steal if they think the other will steal as well. Also, people don't like to get swindled. If they expect swindling, its' only natural that they resist it however they can. Don't get me wrong, we need honour, if only so we can share this Earth together. There are other ways to fight dishonour than to be dishonourable yourself, and there are advantages to honour (such as the reputation of being honourable). It's just that evidence is not as rainbows and unicorns as we'd like.

WalterBright 5y ago
> overwhelming evidence suggests that people's honour is contingent of their estimation of the honour of their peers. I don't doubt that. I hear people brag all the time about doing that. But I don't respect such behavior, and never trust people like that. Do you?
- loup-vaillant 5y ago
  You had me worried for a moment with "I like to believe". I considered suggesting the litany of Tarsky, where you basically want to believe whatever is true, and not get too attached to beliefs you may not want. I now see it was just a figure of speech. Now, would I trust people who would behave dishonourably around people they deem dishonourable? Well, probably less. I’d fear they might flag me as dishonourable, and one sidedly turn what could have been a tit-for-tat into an eye-for-an-eye. I’d be cautious for sure, but I’d most likely still give them the benefit of the doubt until they give me concrete cause to write them off. Whether that’s a good strategy is another question, though. (For instance, Littlefinger did tell Ned Stark not to trust him, and Ned, being the bloody paragon that he is, trusted the sleazy bastard anyway, and lost is head for it.)
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    Be careful about getting life lessons from movie scripts :-/ But people do often unwittingly telegraph that they are untrustworthy. One of the obvious tells starts with "You can trust me!" In isolation, it doesn't mean the person is untrustworthy, but it is a warning beep.
- GlennS 5y ago
  I think there's more to it than just that: Being around good people can inspire you to try to become better yourself. Being around good people can give you the nudge you need to behave better when that's difficult. Lastly, as much as I admire the ideally, I simply don't believe in turning the cheek at all times. It exposes other people to risk, not just yourself. (Perhaps that's not what you're arguing for though.) (I think I understand the general point you're making, and agree with you partially.)
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    Turning the other cheek is something different altogether.

WalterBright 5y ago

> overwhelming evidence suggests that people's honour is contingent of their estimation of the honour of their peers. I don't doubt that. I hear people brag all the time about doing that. But I don't respect such behavior, and never trust people like that. Do you?

loup-vaillant 5y ago
You had me worried for a moment with "I like to believe". I considered suggesting the litany of Tarsky, where you basically want to believe whatever is true, and not get too attached to beliefs you may not want. I now see it was just a figure of speech. Now, would I trust people who would behave dishonourably around people they deem dishonourable? Well, probably less. I’d fear they might flag me as dishonourable, and one sidedly turn what could have been a tit-for-tat into an eye-for-an-eye. I’d be cautious for sure, but I’d most likely still give them the benefit of the doubt until they give me concrete cause to write them off. Whether that’s a good strategy is another question, though. (For instance, Littlefinger did tell Ned Stark not to trust him, and Ned, being the bloody paragon that he is, trusted the sleazy bastard anyway, and lost is head for it.)
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Be careful about getting life lessons from movie scripts :-/ But people do often unwittingly telegraph that they are untrustworthy. One of the obvious tells starts with "You can trust me!" In isolation, it doesn't mean the person is untrustworthy, but it is a warning beep.
GlennS 5y ago
I think there's more to it than just that: Being around good people can inspire you to try to become better yourself. Being around good people can give you the nudge you need to behave better when that's difficult. Lastly, as much as I admire the ideally, I simply don't believe in turning the cheek at all times. It exposes other people to risk, not just yourself. (Perhaps that's not what you're arguing for though.) (I think I understand the general point you're making, and agree with you partially.)
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Turning the other cheek is something different altogether.