7 ms·

Just in case you don't know it... In germany it's not possible to have a criminal prosecution against a company. It's only possible to do it against the indivi

Just in case you don't know it... In germany it's not possible to have a criminal prosecution against a company. It's only possible to do it against the individual persons in that company who acted criminally. Pretty stupid imho and one of the few things I'm jealous about the US. It's also the reason why VW had to pay a huge fine in the US but not in Germany. Actually germany can't do shit about it. They can only try to punish some employees IF they can prove they are guilty....

bagacrap 5y ago
which is the stronger deterrent, a (large but recoverable) corporate fine or prison time for the decision makers? I'd wager the latter --- the former mainly punishes shareholders.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- voxic11 5y ago
  Having a criminal record has other consequences for companies in the US, like being ineligible for most government contracts.
  - watwut 5y ago
    But the managers who caused it are long time gone, they got their pay raises and new jobs. The stocks went up too in the meantime, rewarding those who enabled in the process.
- Sindisil 5y ago
  The proper response would be to prosecute both the corporation and specific individuals who acted illegally. The former as a corrective action to help unwind any advantage gained in the market due to the illegal activity. This means, though, that fines need to actually claw back the ill gotten gains, not the small fraction they represent today. Right now, the fines are just another expense, assuming the company even gets caught. Prosecuting the company properly might also ensure some measure of justice in cases where specific individuals' guilt is obscured by corporate structure and systems (intentionally or otherwise). Prosecuting individuals who break the law in service of their employer (executive or not) isn't much different than prosecuting soldiers who commit war crimes -- obviously different in degree, but not in kind. "I was just following orders" shouldn't be an acceptable defense in either case, though coercion and fear of reprisal should certainly be taken into account.
antnisp 5y ago
OTOH executives can't hide behind the company as an entity.
- voxic11 5y ago
  They seem to be doing it just fine anyways based on this article.
  - adamors 5y ago
    > Winterkorn, 74, was initially meant to stand trial alongside the other four executives but recently underwent an operation, leaving him unable to appear.
gwbas1c 5y ago
This basically leads to people getting away with lots of sketchy behavior, (in the US) because the corporate veil absolves the decision makers of any personal responsibility. A stark difference between the EU and the US is that European companies have a harder time claiming their product is safe when it really isn't. For example, lead paint was banned in European countries long before the US.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  This thread is about how Volkswagen claimed their cars were safer than they were.
  - barbazoo 5y ago
    Not safer, cleaner.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      I guess it depends on timeframe. The reason we care about the cars being “cleaner” is because it is safer. But not in a someone is going to be maimed way.
ketzu 5y ago
> It's also the reason why VW had to pay a huge fine in the US but not in Germany. VW had to pay 1 billion euro in germany. Maybe that's not enough, but it definately is not the case that companies are not persecuted in any way at all in Germany.

bagacrap 5y ago

which is the stronger deterrent, a (large but recoverable) corporate fine or prison time for the decision makers? I'd wager the latter --- the former mainly punishes shareholders.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
voxic11 5y ago
Having a criminal record has other consequences for companies in the US, like being ineligible for most government contracts.
- watwut 5y ago
  But the managers who caused it are long time gone, they got their pay raises and new jobs. The stocks went up too in the meantime, rewarding those who enabled in the process.
Sindisil 5y ago
The proper response would be to prosecute both the corporation and specific individuals who acted illegally. The former as a corrective action to help unwind any advantage gained in the market due to the illegal activity. This means, though, that fines need to actually claw back the ill gotten gains, not the small fraction they represent today. Right now, the fines are just another expense, assuming the company even gets caught. Prosecuting the company properly might also ensure some measure of justice in cases where specific individuals' guilt is obscured by corporate structure and systems (intentionally or otherwise). Prosecuting individuals who break the law in service of their employer (executive or not) isn't much different than prosecuting soldiers who commit war crimes -- obviously different in degree, but not in kind. "I was just following orders" shouldn't be an acceptable defense in either case, though coercion and fear of reprisal should certainly be taken into account.

antnisp 5y ago

OTOH executives can't hide behind the company as an entity.

voxic11 5y ago
They seem to be doing it just fine anyways based on this article.
- adamors 5y ago
  > Winterkorn, 74, was initially meant to stand trial alongside the other four executives but recently underwent an operation, leaving him unable to appear.

gwbas1c 5y ago

This basically leads to people getting away with lots of sketchy behavior, (in the US) because the corporate veil absolves the decision makers of any personal responsibility. A stark difference between the EU and the US is that European companies have a harder time claiming their product is safe when it really isn't. For example, lead paint was banned in European countries long before the US.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
This thread is about how Volkswagen claimed their cars were safer than they were.
- barbazoo 5y ago
  Not safer, cleaner.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    I guess it depends on timeframe. The reason we care about the cars being “cleaner” is because it is safer. But not in a someone is going to be maimed way.

ketzu 5y ago

> It's also the reason why VW had to pay a huge fine in the US but not in Germany. VW had to pay 1 billion euro in germany. Maybe that's not enough, but it definately is not the case that companies are not persecuted in any way at all in Germany.