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> I wouldn't hire someone who said that. It translates to "I'll only be honest if you are honest." So you concede you are NOT going to be honest, then, but are

> I wouldn't hire someone who said that. It translates to "I'll only be honest if you are honest." So you concede you are NOT going to be honest, then, but are expecting 100% honesty back because of the notion of honor, which is what exploitative, scummy people usually do. You also invoke honor to make the other guy not question your honesty. No. A job is a bargain we strike in good faith. I will stick to my end of the bargain to the exact extent of you sticking to yours. This is how people who actually have honor do business.

WalterBright 5y ago
> So you concede you are NOT going to be honest There's nothing dishonest about not hiring someone who says they're not going to keep their word. > I will stick to my end of the bargain to the exact extent of you sticking to yours. This is how people who actually have honor do business. No, it isn't. Contingent honor is not honor. For example, people who steal items from work, and justify it to themselves because they believe they aren't paid enough, or the boss disrespected them, or whatever, are thieves.
- mettamage 5y ago
  For what it's worth: the following thoughts aren't amazingly well thought out, but for the sake of discussion. This is what I think. I find it interesting to read about your perspective, I haven't seen such a strong one in a while. And it forces me to think about interesting things. > are thieves Being a thief is not always as bad as you're implying here. First and foremost, there are many cases where I'd see your point and agree. But IMO it isn't that simple. While on vacation, I've met many people in Cuba that couldn't make ends meet and would starve for a week. They'd also be thieves if they'd still food. But if a government treats you that poorly, I see it as a necessity. American soldiers that killed German soldiers between 1940 to 1945 were also murderers in the eyes of Germany. And while I am not happy that anyone got killed during that war. I am happy with the consequence it brought (my great grandparents their freedom). Now let's go to a more nuanced point. Many people in The Netherlands could barely make ends meet, because they could barely pay rent + bills and not save a penny. Then corona hit. They got utterly fucked. The people that you'd describe as a thief didn't get as much fucked (not that I know any thief so I'm using my imagination here). When a system fails you, move away. When you can't, mayhem ensues. When enough mayhem ensues by too many people then it might go down as a revolution in the history books and be the de facto winning story on how things should always have been. Or people are simply criminals, rounded up, shamed and put in jail. In nuanced cases they also get therapy. When it comes to these things I see 2 sides of a story that are in direct opposition with each other. IMO, you have a very strong opinion that one side of that story is true and the other should burn in hell. I disagree with that as the perspective is necessary to understand all sorts of things.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    That is not the situation in the US. Stealing from your employer is not that situation. If you don't like the work arrangement, quit and get another job. Wars brutalize people, and WW2 was a very, very brutal war. I have never been in combat, and so am not going to be too judgmental of people who were. BTW, my father served in combat in WW2 an Korea. I asked him once if he felt bad about shooting at Me109s. He said no, because they were doing their damnedest to kill him. But also, the men he served with went out of their way to trust him with their lives. That's quite an honor.

WalterBright 5y ago

> So you concede you are NOT going to be honest There's nothing dishonest about not hiring someone who says they're not going to keep their word. > I will stick to my end of the bargain to the exact extent of you sticking to yours. This is how people who actually have honor do business. No, it isn't. Contingent honor is not honor. For example, people who steal items from work, and justify it to themselves because they believe they aren't paid enough, or the boss disrespected them, or whatever, are thieves.

mettamage 5y ago
For what it's worth: the following thoughts aren't amazingly well thought out, but for the sake of discussion. This is what I think. I find it interesting to read about your perspective, I haven't seen such a strong one in a while. And it forces me to think about interesting things. > are thieves Being a thief is not always as bad as you're implying here. First and foremost, there are many cases where I'd see your point and agree. But IMO it isn't that simple. While on vacation, I've met many people in Cuba that couldn't make ends meet and would starve for a week. They'd also be thieves if they'd still food. But if a government treats you that poorly, I see it as a necessity. American soldiers that killed German soldiers between 1940 to 1945 were also murderers in the eyes of Germany. And while I am not happy that anyone got killed during that war. I am happy with the consequence it brought (my great grandparents their freedom). Now let's go to a more nuanced point. Many people in The Netherlands could barely make ends meet, because they could barely pay rent + bills and not save a penny. Then corona hit. They got utterly fucked. The people that you'd describe as a thief didn't get as much fucked (not that I know any thief so I'm using my imagination here). When a system fails you, move away. When you can't, mayhem ensues. When enough mayhem ensues by too many people then it might go down as a revolution in the history books and be the de facto winning story on how things should always have been. Or people are simply criminals, rounded up, shamed and put in jail. In nuanced cases they also get therapy. When it comes to these things I see 2 sides of a story that are in direct opposition with each other. IMO, you have a very strong opinion that one side of that story is true and the other should burn in hell. I disagree with that as the perspective is necessary to understand all sorts of things.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  That is not the situation in the US. Stealing from your employer is not that situation. If you don't like the work arrangement, quit and get another job. Wars brutalize people, and WW2 was a very, very brutal war. I have never been in combat, and so am not going to be too judgmental of people who were. BTW, my father served in combat in WW2 an Korea. I asked him once if he felt bad about shooting at Me109s. He said no, because they were doing their damnedest to kill him. But also, the men he served with went out of their way to trust him with their lives. That's quite an honor.