4 ms·

Italian here. Don't get your hopes up, Italy is a very peculiar place, there are 11.5 million workers that are members of one of the tree major trade unions, n

Italian here. Don't get your hopes up, Italy is a very peculiar place, there are 11.5 million workers that are members of one of the tree major trade unions, not counting smaller ones, it's half of the total work force. Nothing moves in Italy without an agreement with trade unions when a company the size of Amazon starts hiring en masse. That's both good and bad, but generally more good than bad.

qsort 5y ago
Italian as well. I'm generally pro-union and I see nothing wrong with this deal. Our particular implementation of unions though is dreadful and disgusting. Full of politicians or wannabe politicians, they'll gladly defend the indefensible to raise their membership numbers. They are for all practical purposes political parties, not unions, and they regularly come out with nonsensical takes about everything. It's good most of the workforce is unionized, but I have nothing but contempt for how they're run.
- pibechorro 5y ago
  that is what always happens to unions and why I oppose them. They eventually corrupt because they are a political process, especially whrn in bed with regulators (look at Biden subcidies for tech only if unionized vs Tesla). The same logic applies for business lobbying regulators, they corrupt and capture. We need free markets, devoid of any political intervention. Individuals voluntarily coming to emergent consensus is the way towards fair and uncorruptable futures.
  - qsort 5y ago
    I agree that letting the market do its job would be the optimal solution, but this is unfortunately unrealistic. In most job markets there are information asymmetries so large that the market is effectively "nonfree" to begin with (free markets don't naturally emerge, you need at least some regulation for them to flourish). In a utopian future where workers can freely reject bad working conditions, I agree, they would be unnecessary. For the time being, they are a necessary evil. I once said half-jokingly that if they ever founded a union where membership is conditional on a whiteboard interview I'd join in a heartbeat. You need to keep out the politicized idiots who join a union not because of the union itself, but because they want to LARP as communists or whatever.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    I have seen what free markets do to weekends, vacations, employee illness, and barging power, no thanks. Want to see free markets in action? Talk to the Asian or South American folks at the end of an offshoring sweet shop. I bet plenty can jump in here, with their "barging power".
alberto_ol 5y ago
11,5 million people are members of the major trade unions, but roughly half of them are not workers anymore, they are retired
- peoplefromibiza 5y ago
  That's what the right wants people to believe. The far right has been very active to support this claim, web sites like primatonazionale keep pushing false information about it, in reality age wise only 46% of the members are 50 or older, age of retirement is at least 62 years in Italy, so statistically a vast majority of the members is still working. It is true that many retired people keep supporting the trade unions, but trade unions work for retired people too and their rights as former workers. My mom, for example, had free legal assistance by the unions to obtain a compensation for an occupational disease that made her partially disabled. If she had to fight alone she wouldn't have obtained it and it would have costed us a fortune. Please stop spreading disinformation.
- mastazi 5y ago
  There is also another problem with Italian trade unions. The workers who are unionised are generally privileged compared to the general population. Meanwhile many disadvantaged workers - who are employed with short-term contracts[1] or very often without contract[2], (which is wide spread even though that is technically illegal) are not unionised. At the same time you will see categories of privileged workers such as Alitalia pilots or hospital doctors where the vast majority of workers are unionised. So Italian unions are halfway between what unions are really supposed to be, and a nation-wide country club. At least, this was the situation 10 years ago when I left the country. From what I hear, it doesn't seem this has changed. [1] these are known in Italy as "precari" i.e. people who are in a precarious position. [2] illegal labour is very common especially in central and southern regions, it is known in Italy as "lavoro nero" - nero is the colour black in Italian but in this case it actually means "submerged".
  - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
    > Meanwhile many disadvantaged workers - who are employed with short-term contracts[1] (or very often without contract[2], which is wide spread even though that is technically illegal) are not unionised. Not to defend Italian unions, that have their fault, but: Of course workers working illegally are not unionized, that doesn't mean they have no protection at all. Italy is well known for having a subsidy for everything, including unoccupied people, who earn money from the State and from their illegal job. Anyway, short-term workers are protected by unions, I know for sure at least CGIL has a department devolved to temporary workers or people working part time or on a short-term contract. In Italy even cab drivers have their own unions! (plural!)

qsort 5y ago

Italian as well. I'm generally pro-union and I see nothing wrong with this deal. Our particular implementation of unions though is dreadful and disgusting. Full of politicians or wannabe politicians, they'll gladly defend the indefensible to raise their membership numbers. They are for all practical purposes political parties, not unions, and they regularly come out with nonsensical takes about everything. It's good most of the workforce is unionized, but I have nothing but contempt for how they're run.

pibechorro 5y ago
that is what always happens to unions and why I oppose them. They eventually corrupt because they are a political process, especially whrn in bed with regulators (look at Biden subcidies for tech only if unionized vs Tesla). The same logic applies for business lobbying regulators, they corrupt and capture. We need free markets, devoid of any political intervention. Individuals voluntarily coming to emergent consensus is the way towards fair and uncorruptable futures.
- qsort 5y ago
  I agree that letting the market do its job would be the optimal solution, but this is unfortunately unrealistic. In most job markets there are information asymmetries so large that the market is effectively "nonfree" to begin with (free markets don't naturally emerge, you need at least some regulation for them to flourish). In a utopian future where workers can freely reject bad working conditions, I agree, they would be unnecessary. For the time being, they are a necessary evil. I once said half-jokingly that if they ever founded a union where membership is conditional on a whiteboard interview I'd join in a heartbeat. You need to keep out the politicized idiots who join a union not because of the union itself, but because they want to LARP as communists or whatever.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  I have seen what free markets do to weekends, vacations, employee illness, and barging power, no thanks. Want to see free markets in action? Talk to the Asian or South American folks at the end of an offshoring sweet shop. I bet plenty can jump in here, with their "barging power".

alberto_ol 5y ago

11,5 million people are members of the major trade unions, but roughly half of them are not workers anymore, they are retired

peoplefromibiza 5y ago
That's what the right wants people to believe. The far right has been very active to support this claim, web sites like primatonazionale keep pushing false information about it, in reality age wise only 46% of the members are 50 or older, age of retirement is at least 62 years in Italy, so statistically a vast majority of the members is still working. It is true that many retired people keep supporting the trade unions, but trade unions work for retired people too and their rights as former workers. My mom, for example, had free legal assistance by the unions to obtain a compensation for an occupational disease that made her partially disabled. If she had to fight alone she wouldn't have obtained it and it would have costed us a fortune. Please stop spreading disinformation.
mastazi 5y ago
There is also another problem with Italian trade unions. The workers who are unionised are generally privileged compared to the general population. Meanwhile many disadvantaged workers - who are employed with short-term contracts[1] or very often without contract[2], (which is wide spread even though that is technically illegal) are not unionised. At the same time you will see categories of privileged workers such as Alitalia pilots or hospital doctors where the vast majority of workers are unionised. So Italian unions are halfway between what unions are really supposed to be, and a nation-wide country club. At least, this was the situation 10 years ago when I left the country. From what I hear, it doesn't seem this has changed. [1] these are known in Italy as "precari" i.e. people who are in a precarious position. [2] illegal labour is very common especially in central and southern regions, it is known in Italy as "lavoro nero" - nero is the colour black in Italian but in this case it actually means "submerged".
- peoplefromibiza 5y ago
  > Meanwhile many disadvantaged workers - who are employed with short-term contracts[1] (or very often without contract[2], which is wide spread even though that is technically illegal) are not unionised. Not to defend Italian unions, that have their fault, but: Of course workers working illegally are not unionized, that doesn't mean they have no protection at all. Italy is well known for having a subsidy for everything, including unoccupied people, who earn money from the State and from their illegal job. Anyway, short-term workers are protected by unions, I know for sure at least CGIL has a department devolved to temporary workers or people working part time or on a short-term contract. In Italy even cab drivers have their own unions! (plural!)