5 ms·

Good news for Pfizer shareholders as there will be endless purchase orders from the government, and little incentive to improve its durability

by daenz 5y ago

Uehreka 5y ago
…wouldn’t they just seek out a vaccine manufacturer whose vaccine has better longevity? Idk if this applies to Moderna, but even if it did, at this stage in the game there are over a dozen vaccines in production worldwide.
- chitowneats 5y ago
  Moderna also announced recently the effectiveness of their vaccine wanes. https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/moderna-says-covid-19-vaccine-protection-wanes-makes-case-booster-2021-09-15/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...
- Vecr 5y ago
  I don't think any of them have better durability. If you used the Biothrax reduced schedule of doses at 0 months, one month, 6 months (five months after second dose), 12 months (six months after third dose), and 18 months, you might be able to switch to boosting once a year before a predicted spike. That would be improbable even in the richest countries (look at how Anthrax went in the US military), so the probable solution would be not to care about infection, or to pray to the god of live attenuated nasal spray vaccines to save us all.
  - creato 5y ago
    Figure 1 of this study (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.06.21261707v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.06.21261707v..., linked elsewhere in the thread) shows a pretty clear difference between Moderna and Pfizer.
    - Vecr 5y ago
      It might give you a year after 3 or 4 doses instead, but I'm not sure it's worth the reactogenicity. Good point though.
- bryan0 5y ago
  Some studies[0] have shown Moderna does not have the same waning problems as pfizer, possibly due to pfizer’s much smaller dosage. https://amp.ft.com/content/aaddc31b-415d-43d0-b314-bc89a8b860e0 https://amp.ft.com/content/aaddc31b-415d-43d0-b314-bc89a8b86...
- daenz 5y ago
  Are you suggesting that the likelihood of a contract renewal worth tens of billions of taxpayer dollars rests solely on our government seeking to objectively determine the best vaccine for the taxpayers?
  - Leparamour 5y ago
    Do you have a license for that sort of dangerous thinking?
- andreygrehov 5y ago
  Not in the near future. Pretty sure there are multi-year contracts given that the US government was able to negotiate the Pfizer vaccine price from $30+ down to $19.50 per dose.
himinlomax 5y ago
Is that snark? Do you believe they did this on purpose?
- generalizations 5y ago
  Big corps have been known to do worse...see, e.g., the nesle baby formula scandal. https://www.ranker.com/list/nestle-baby-formula-boycott/melissa-sartore https://www.ranker.com/list/nestle-baby-formula-boycott/meli...
- trhway 5y ago
  It looks like they on purpose not developing new vaccine for delta, gamma, etc. and instead continue to milk the old one. Typical MBA myopia - they don't see that with the quick production mRNA tech and the regularly emerging virus variants (seasonal Covid, flu and whatever is to come) they have on hands the perfect business model of vaccine as basically a subscription service, and instead they go the old way of regulatory capture to maximize the ROI of the current product through the vaccine mandate/etc.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > they on purpose not developing new vaccine for delta Pfizer is testing a Delta-specific booster [1]. They can’t just plop it into the market. It has to go through a whole new set of approvals. [1] https://cdn.pfizer.com/pfizercom/2021-07/Delta_Variant_Study_Press_Statement_Final_7.8.21.pdf https://cdn.pfizer.com/pfizercom/2021-07/Delta_Variant_Study...
    - thehappypm 5y ago
      That's not 100% true; boosters for the flu do not need to go through the whole 6-month-testing double-blind rigamarole. A COVID booster with a tweaked Delta specific formula could be approved much more quickly than the original vaccine. There's precedent for that.
  - Leparamour 5y ago
    Do you remember the swine flu from 2009? A couple of years ago (in the year after the swine flu craze), I was at the doctor's to get my yearly seasonal flu shot when I read the label on the vaccine vial stating that it was a seasonal flu / swine flu compound mix. Apparently the manufacturer got rid of their leftovers from the previous year by the help of a cost efficient second cycle use. I doubt that many people, who got their seasonal flu shot that year, were told what else they were injected with. I politely declined.
fsh 5y ago
COVID-19 is becoming endemic. The second booster will be the virus itself.
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  Maybe they should give you the live virus after receiving the vaccine? I mean, studies show that being vaccinated and getting COVID-19 provides the best immunity.
  - bobbytit 5y ago
    Please stop giving our authoritarian overlords ideas
  - jansan 5y ago
    One of Germany's top health officials actually said that he hopes to get infected with the virus as long as the vaccine protects him from severe symptoms. That caused a bit of a stir in his fan base.
    - encryptluks2 5y ago
      That is what I'm saying. If they are actually going off research they'd follow-up the vaccine with the live virus.

Good news for Pfizer shareholders as there will be endless purchase orders from the government, and little incentive to improve its durability

by daenz 5y ago

Good news for Pfizer shareholders as there will be endless purchase orders from the government, and little incentive to improve its durability

Uehreka 5y ago

…wouldn’t they just seek out a vaccine manufacturer whose vaccine has better longevity? Idk if this applies to Moderna, but even if it did, at this stage in the game there are over a dozen vaccines in production worldwide.

chitowneats 5y ago
Moderna also announced recently the effectiveness of their vaccine wanes. https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/moderna-says-covid-19-vaccine-protection-wanes-makes-case-booster-2021-09-15/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...
Vecr 5y ago
I don't think any of them have better durability. If you used the Biothrax reduced schedule of doses at 0 months, one month, 6 months (five months after second dose), 12 months (six months after third dose), and 18 months, you might be able to switch to boosting once a year before a predicted spike. That would be improbable even in the richest countries (look at how Anthrax went in the US military), so the probable solution would be not to care about infection, or to pray to the god of live attenuated nasal spray vaccines to save us all.
- creato 5y ago
  Figure 1 of this study (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.06.21261707v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.06.21261707v..., linked elsewhere in the thread) shows a pretty clear difference between Moderna and Pfizer.
  - Vecr 5y ago
    It might give you a year after 3 or 4 doses instead, but I'm not sure it's worth the reactogenicity. Good point though.
bryan0 5y ago
Some studies[0] have shown Moderna does not have the same waning problems as pfizer, possibly due to pfizer’s much smaller dosage. https://amp.ft.com/content/aaddc31b-415d-43d0-b314-bc89a8b860e0 https://amp.ft.com/content/aaddc31b-415d-43d0-b314-bc89a8b86...
daenz 5y ago
Are you suggesting that the likelihood of a contract renewal worth tens of billions of taxpayer dollars rests solely on our government seeking to objectively determine the best vaccine for the taxpayers?
- Leparamour 5y ago
  Do you have a license for that sort of dangerous thinking?
andreygrehov 5y ago
Not in the near future. Pretty sure there are multi-year contracts given that the US government was able to negotiate the Pfizer vaccine price from $30+ down to $19.50 per dose.

himinlomax 5y ago

Is that snark? Do you believe they did this on purpose?

generalizations 5y ago
Big corps have been known to do worse...see, e.g., the nesle baby formula scandal. https://www.ranker.com/list/nestle-baby-formula-boycott/melissa-sartore https://www.ranker.com/list/nestle-baby-formula-boycott/meli...
trhway 5y ago
It looks like they on purpose not developing new vaccine for delta, gamma, etc. and instead continue to milk the old one. Typical MBA myopia - they don't see that with the quick production mRNA tech and the regularly emerging virus variants (seasonal Covid, flu and whatever is to come) they have on hands the perfect business model of vaccine as basically a subscription service, and instead they go the old way of regulatory capture to maximize the ROI of the current product through the vaccine mandate/etc.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > they on purpose not developing new vaccine for delta Pfizer is testing a Delta-specific booster [1]. They can’t just plop it into the market. It has to go through a whole new set of approvals. [1] https://cdn.pfizer.com/pfizercom/2021-07/Delta_Variant_Study_Press_Statement_Final_7.8.21.pdf https://cdn.pfizer.com/pfizercom/2021-07/Delta_Variant_Study...
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    That's not 100% true; boosters for the flu do not need to go through the whole 6-month-testing double-blind rigamarole. A COVID booster with a tweaked Delta specific formula could be approved much more quickly than the original vaccine. There's precedent for that.
- Leparamour 5y ago
  Do you remember the swine flu from 2009? A couple of years ago (in the year after the swine flu craze), I was at the doctor's to get my yearly seasonal flu shot when I read the label on the vaccine vial stating that it was a seasonal flu / swine flu compound mix. Apparently the manufacturer got rid of their leftovers from the previous year by the help of a cost efficient second cycle use. I doubt that many people, who got their seasonal flu shot that year, were told what else they were injected with. I politely declined.

fsh 5y ago

COVID-19 is becoming endemic. The second booster will be the virus itself.

encryptluks2 5y ago
Maybe they should give you the live virus after receiving the vaccine? I mean, studies show that being vaccinated and getting COVID-19 provides the best immunity.
- bobbytit 5y ago
  Please stop giving our authoritarian overlords ideas
- jansan 5y ago
  One of Germany's top health officials actually said that he hopes to get infected with the virus as long as the vaccine protects him from severe symptoms. That caused a bit of a stir in his fan base.
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
    That is what I'm saying. If they are actually going off research they'd follow-up the vaccine with the live virus.