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What does it mean to be in a Cold War with China? On the US side, the Cold War with the USSR involved coups (many but not all successful) in the Middle East and

What does it mean to be in a Cold War with China? On the US side, the Cold War with the USSR involved coups (many but not all successful) in the Middle East and Latin America, training death squads at the School of the Americas, installing nuclear ICBMs in Turkey and on submarines surrounding the USSR, propping up puppet/minority governments resisting “contagion” (and even going to war on behalf of some of them). This was all done to resist “contagion” (sometimes USSR imperialism, but mostly just people agreeing with ideas we didn’t like). What does it mean this time? There doesn’t even seem to be any argument akin to “contagion”. I don’t see any Chinese imperialism or even a big ideological soft power push. Even China’s loans and purchases associated with the Belt and Road come with almost no ideological strings, especially compared with IMF loans and US’s push for the Washington Consensus. What material actions are being asked for here, in order to make up for the lost focus on this supposed “Cold War 2”? This whole article is saber rattling nonsense to me.

angelzen 5y ago
Cold War I ended with the breakup of the USSR. Quite possible that Cold War II will have the same end, marked by economic crisis and ethnic strife, but most importantly by the complete dissolution of the average person's faith in their own country. The submarines are a side show, mostly a signal of economic health.
- dundarious 5y ago
  My questions were about the entire stretch before the end, where a lot of things took place (almost entirely openly reported contemporaneously in the press) and I don’t see analogous things taking place this time, on either side. I mentioned submarines in the context of nuclear buildup during CW1, where they were not a distraction at all. Launch facilities in Turkey were closed as part of a deal to end the Cuban Missile Crisis/October Crisis, but the US only did so because they were to be retired anyway in favor of the submarine nuclear capability.
  - angelzen 5y ago
    The '80 were a period of continuous economic decline and increase in nationalist sentiment all over USSR and satellites. Mostly an implosion. The US won by simply sustaining a level of prosperity that the Soviets could not match. Arguably pop music, blue jeans and Hollywood movies were the primary driver of the destruction of the morale of the average soviet citizen, especially the young generations for which the carnage of WW2 was a distant memory. Militarily speaking, the Afghanistan debacle was the largest contributor, though that was mostly the doing of the Afghanis.
    - dundarious 5y ago
      Then that’s not a war. That’s economic competition and maybe starvation (i.e., embargos, sanctions). As a separate point, and I acknowledge it’s not at all apples-to-apples, but that tactic has been totally unsuccessful regarding Cuba. But in an alternate reality with just economic competition and a few sanctions here and there (no coups, etc.), it’s not a war at all, even a cold one. And if anyone, surely we’re in a cold war with Russia right now — we even have proxy military fronts in Ukraine and Syria! Nothing at all like this for China. Edit: I don’t think it’s advisable to think of the US as being in a hot/cold war with Russia either.
      - angelzen 5y ago
        Fair enough. Arguably Cold War I wasn't much of a war either. Other than perhaps a short window after WW2, there was never a risk of a Soviet invasion in Western Europe. The Soviets could barely move 10 tons of potatoes from Ukraine to Moscow, and not before losing half to frostbite.
        dundarious 5y ago
        I think I gave enough examples to show how it was far more of a war than whatever arrangement we currently have with China, but also that it involved a lot of violence and conventional hot wars by proxy — a lot of war stuff for a non-war. Also, the Cuban Missile Crisis/October Crisis was as Hot as a Cold War can get, given Kennedy’s advisors thought the naval blockade was tantamount to a declaration of war, and we were 2/3 of the way to a nuclear tipped torpedo hitting San Francisco Bay. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Arkhipov_(vice_admiral) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Arkhipov_(vice_admira...

angelzen 5y ago

Cold War I ended with the breakup of the USSR. Quite possible that Cold War II will have the same end, marked by economic crisis and ethnic strife, but most importantly by the complete dissolution of the average person's faith in their own country. The submarines are a side show, mostly a signal of economic health.

dundarious 5y ago
My questions were about the entire stretch before the end, where a lot of things took place (almost entirely openly reported contemporaneously in the press) and I don’t see analogous things taking place this time, on either side. I mentioned submarines in the context of nuclear buildup during CW1, where they were not a distraction at all. Launch facilities in Turkey were closed as part of a deal to end the Cuban Missile Crisis/October Crisis, but the US only did so because they were to be retired anyway in favor of the submarine nuclear capability.
- angelzen 5y ago
  The '80 were a period of continuous economic decline and increase in nationalist sentiment all over USSR and satellites. Mostly an implosion. The US won by simply sustaining a level of prosperity that the Soviets could not match. Arguably pop music, blue jeans and Hollywood movies were the primary driver of the destruction of the morale of the average soviet citizen, especially the young generations for which the carnage of WW2 was a distant memory. Militarily speaking, the Afghanistan debacle was the largest contributor, though that was mostly the doing of the Afghanis.
  - dundarious 5y ago
    Then that’s not a war. That’s economic competition and maybe starvation (i.e., embargos, sanctions). As a separate point, and I acknowledge it’s not at all apples-to-apples, but that tactic has been totally unsuccessful regarding Cuba. But in an alternate reality with just economic competition and a few sanctions here and there (no coups, etc.), it’s not a war at all, even a cold one. And if anyone, surely we’re in a cold war with Russia right now — we even have proxy military fronts in Ukraine and Syria! Nothing at all like this for China. Edit: I don’t think it’s advisable to think of the US as being in a hot/cold war with Russia either.
    - angelzen 5y ago
      Fair enough. Arguably Cold War I wasn't much of a war either. Other than perhaps a short window after WW2, there was never a risk of a Soviet invasion in Western Europe. The Soviets could barely move 10 tons of potatoes from Ukraine to Moscow, and not before losing half to frostbite.
      - dundarious 5y ago
        I think I gave enough examples to show how it was far more of a war than whatever arrangement we currently have with China, but also that it involved a lot of violence and conventional hot wars by proxy — a lot of war stuff for a non-war. Also, the Cuban Missile Crisis/October Crisis was as Hot as a Cold War can get, given Kennedy’s advisors thought the naval blockade was tantamount to a declaration of war, and we were 2/3 of the way to a nuclear tipped torpedo hitting San Francisco Bay. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Arkhipov_(vice_admiral) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Arkhipov_(vice_admira...