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Backpage founders get mistrial because US overplayed child sex trafficking claim

282 points by LinuxBender 5y ago

x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
Doesn't matter though. The web property was taken down, and safer-ish sex work suffered a set back. Sex trafficking is the new "terrorism" whereby the government or other organizations can allege it, and the targeted entity is pretty much SOL.
- rhizome 5y ago
  It's definitely "other organizations" that are the engine of this stuff.
  - commoner 5y ago
    One of those "other organizations" is the NCMEC, which was established by[1] and heavily funded by[2] the U.S. Congress. NCMEC has consistently tried to impede the implementation of end-to-end encryption. Even before the Apple/iCloud debacle, the NCMEC pushed tech companies to prohibit users under 18 from using end-to-end encryption:[3] > On February 20, 2020, NCMEC released an open letter to the technology industry outlining five Principles to Safeguard Children in End-to-End Encrypted Environments. > - Do not implement end-to-end encrypted communications for accounts where a user has indicated they are under 18 years old. Restricting children from secure communications is an especially user-hostile way to advocate against child abuse. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20121029010231/http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PageServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&PageId=4362 https://web.archive.org/web/20121029010231/http://www.missin... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_Children%27s_Assistance_Reauthorization_Act_of_2013 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_Children%27s_Assistanc... [3] https://www.missingkids.org/e2ee https://www.missingkids.org/e2ee
    - ethanbond 5y ago
      Given that children have attenuated rights in basically every society, restricting access to E2EE seems like an imperfect but deeply net positive way to reduce child harm. What “savory” actions for which a minor would use E2EE are you concerned are jeopardized by such a proposal? (Particularly interested in what actions or content is jeopardized, not the ideal of privacy, which I agree is important even for minors)
      - commoner 5y ago
        Preventing children from using E2EE is not a "net positive" just as preventing adults from using E2EE is also not a "net positive". Privacy is a human right, not a right that should be made exclusive to adults. Just because children are restricted from other activities does not make it justified to restrict their rights further. End-to-end encryption helps prevent messages from being intercepted by intermediaries, such as companies and governments. For example, an advocate (for human rights, environment, or any other cause) who is under 18 may wish to coordinate a protest or some other activity while minimizing exposure to surveillance from potential adversaries. Or in a more ordinary example, children may want to communicate with others without being profiled by advertisers or government agencies through the content of their messages. Secure communications are as valuable to children as they are to adults.
        pyuser583 5y ago
        I review my daughters devices regularly. She has encounters extremely predatory content - basically groomers reaching out to see who will bite. As a parent, I have a right to review my childs communications. If she had been using end to end crypto, it’s likely these communications would have auto deleted. That’s the thing about end to end: it isn’t just about a stopping surveillance in real time. It auto destructs the message. That’s makes parental oversight extremely difficult.
        pseudalopex 5y ago
        The only connection between disappearing messages and end to end encryption is they're both privacy features.
- dkdk8283 5y ago
  I have personal experience with Backpage. They had a team of 70 analysts on staff to review all ads and were the #1 source of trafficking tips. I believe the bp owner got into a pissing match with the AZ DA and eventually lost. Many people who hide behind the US government are scumbags. Fuck FOSTA/SESTA too.
  - seneca 5y ago
    Strongly agree with the sentiment of your post. I'm curious how you came about the information that they were the #1 source of trafficking tips. That seems like the government killing a golden goose (not that that is surprising in any way).
    - MattGaiser 5y ago
      It depends. If they thought that backpage enabled/induced trafficking, then them being a top source of tips isn’t that valuable. Would you let a drug dealer run a meth lab if he reported his customers for prosecution? You can argue with my analogy, and I don’t quite agree with it myself, but I can see the government seeing it that way.
      - setr 5y ago
        Doesn’t the three-letters do that like… all the time? That’s basically the definition of honeypotting As I recall, the FBI did exactly that fairly recently, when they pwned some credit card trading site and ran it themselves for years.
        bigiain 5y ago
        They ran a child porn dark web site for two weeks: "Playpen was a notorious darknet child pornography website that operated from August 2014 to March 2015.[1][2] The website operated through a hidden service through the Tor network which allowed users to use the website anonymously. After running the website for 6 months, the website owner Steven W. Chase was captured by the FBI. After his capture, the FBI continued to run the website for another 13 days as part of Operation Pacifier." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playpen_(website) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playpen_(website)
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
  2 weeks ago, it became a felony in Texas to pay for sex. Unlike most of the other batshit laws passed in Texas this year, this one had wide bipartisan support. As a gay man, while this is just anecdotal, it seems to me that the dynamics of gay prostitution are very different from most straight prostitution. I used to think it quite sad to hear about gay men paying for sex. I mean, these days, it is extremely easy for gay men to find other gay men to have sex with, for free, as long as you're willing to have sex with guys who generally look like you do. Then I had some friends who had escorted at some point, and they explained the dynamic. Quite simply, many of the "johns" were older, and they basically wanted a hot, younger guy to have sex with them (of course there were other types, for example closeted men). None of the guys I knew who escorted ever felt coerced into doing it, beyond the fact that they needed money, and to them it was an easy way to get money. Of course, I'm sure there are guys who did feel pressured into doing it, and sex trafficking does occur. But there are still many, perfectly consenting adults who pay for sex as part of "the world's oldest profession". We should stop this moral panic and focus laws to help actual victims of sex trafficking.
  - voltaireodactyl 5y ago
    Just for the record, all the specifics you've listed with regard to gay prostitution also apply to heterosexual prostitution, to my best understanding. That is to say, much of the clientele are older men who just want a hot, younger woman to have sex with them. There are also other types. Some female escorts do not feel coerced, while another significant percentage certainly do. I would imagine that's the same on both front as well. While I totally recognize that male prostitutes are perhaps more likely to be able to resist physical aggression, and therefore have a bit more agency (which I think may have been the point you were leading toward), I think the moral panic crosses all borders, and I agree that once (if) we take that out of the equation, the rest of the conversation becomes much easier.
  - bongoman37 5y ago
    Did they also outlaw taking a woman out on an expensive date?
    - 5y ago
- throwaway91321 5y ago
  To add to this, "sex trafficking" to most people means "sex slavery," but if you look at the definition it's a broad term that includes things like helping a prostitute immigrate illegally. And then law enforcement takes things a step further, often referring to any form of prostitution as "sex trafficking" because they know that if they simply call it prostitution, most people won't see the big problem. It's gotten to the point where I'm skeptical of any news stories I read where authorities are claiming "sex trafficking." It's simply astounding how many of those, if you follow-up on them, end up being simple prostitution cases in the end, with the supposed victims being charged by authorities for engaging in prostitution. The Robert Kraft case is a good recent example. Authorities made a big announcement of saying Kraft and other men were involved in a sex trafficking ring, and the media uncritically spread their claims. If you look at online comments from the time, most people assume that Kraft and others were taking advantage of unwilling sex slaves. But months later the charges against the men were dropped, and the only people that ended up being punished were the women themselves, for prostitution. Authorities have a habit of making a big deceitful announcement that they're saving these women, then when the public and media attention goes elsewhere, the women are the ones the authorities end up punishing.
  - nullifidian 5y ago
    "But anti-prostitution activists like Hughes often use “sexual exploitation” to include any kind of prostitution or sex work—in fact, Hughes insists in her article that "trafficking occurs even if the woman consents.” " https://newrepublic.com/article/123302/human-trafficking-has-become-meaningless-term https://newrepublic.com/article/123302/human-trafficking-has...
    - MomoXenosaga 5y ago
      The fact is that people are desperate for money. And when you're a 20 year old you have something that you can sell that earns money. Prostitution is the oldest job in the world as they say. Only a Star Trek post scarcity economic miracle will eradicate it.
      - 5y ago
InvaderFizz 5y ago
This entire case puts the government in a really bad light once you start looking into it. Recommended reading: https://www.wired.com/story/inside-backpage-vicious-battle-feds/ https://www.wired.com/story/inside-backpage-vicious-battle-f... There was an excellent thread on this by @AshleyLatke on Twitter, but they have made their entire timeline private, so I can't link it.
- rpmisms 5y ago
  > This entire case puts the government in a really bad light once you start looking into it. If I had a nickel for every time I heard that... The SEC would probably open their own investigation into me.
  - valzam 5y ago
    As long as you don't promise the people giving you nickels a dime back...
  - RNCTX 5y ago
    Another rabbit hole worth a stroll into is the Garland, Texas "ISIS" shooting in 2015. By "ISIS" we mean "FBI orchestrated, which we know because an undercover was waiting in the parking lot for the shooters to get there and had been texting them before they even set foot in Texas." For some strange reason, a judicial appointee to the ND Texas Fed District Court took it upon herself, immediately, on her first case the day after she was sworn in, to dismiss the security guard who got shot's lawsuit against the FBI/DOJ and James Comey specifically. You can read a glowing hagiography about her being a good Republican diversity hire in the Dallas Morning News, or you can read stories about that opinion (checking notes...) nowhere outside of one D.C. blog.
    - the-dude 5y ago
      The rabbit hole gets deeper when you look into other 'terror' events in which the spooks are either aware or involved.
avs733 5y ago
I’m surprised they actually got the mistrial. Prosecutorial misconduct is one of the fundamental problems facing this country…it transcends many issues dear to the left and the right.
- rectang 5y ago
  Backpage shut down its adult services section back in January 2017. The defendants may have gotten a mistrial eventually, but they've lost years of their lives.
  - avs733 5y ago
    exactly. And their recourse against that over reach is what? The backpage attack tracks with every other government action that uses law enforcement for moralizing.
- jtdev 5y ago
  The recent trial of a certain Minneapolis police officer was riddled with prosecutorial misconduct… and due to the political shit storm surrounding the case, the misconduct was ignored or denied at every turn.
  - jfrunyon 5y ago
    Like?
    - jtdev 5y ago
      Failure to grant a change of venue which resulted in intimidation of defenses expert witnesses (and subsequently impacted defenses ability to procure witnesses)... Disparaging the defense in the presence of the jury. Failure to sequester the jury throughout the trial. etc.
      - avs733 5y ago
        Prosecutors don’t grant change of venue requests… Are you suggesting the courts in this country are unfair? I’m shocked. Maybe this would have more credibility if Black marijuana users were granted such a strident public defense of bad faith police and prosecutorial actions. Frankly, I’m a strong believer that many of the rights we as the public hold should not be granted to police officers. Presumption of innoncence? Nope…you are empowered by the state to enact violence, should we really rely on the courts, other state agents to act appropriately? Why?
bgorman 5y ago
If anyone is unfamiliar with the case, this is a textbook example of government overreach and lying to the public. There is little reason to believe any of the claims against backpage are true. One of the main people responsible for this is Kamala Harris. Source: https://reason.com/2019/08/26/secret-memos-show-the-government-has-been-lying-about-backpage/ https://reason.com/2019/08/26/secret-memos-show-the-governme...
- em3rgent0rdr 5y ago
  It is sad as far as I can tell the main reason you are getting downvoted is because you mentioned the name of the top prosecutor who unjustly arrested the Backpage founders on trumped up charges.
  - jtdev 5y ago
    We live in an era where politics correctness is worshipped as a god and speaking truth is treated as an apostolic act.
    - wesleywt 5y ago
      Ah the right wings moral panic.
VictorPath 5y ago
Over a century ago, Emma Goldman was an organizer trying to improve the lives of working class men and women. She wrote about the upper middle class liberal, politician-and-yellow-journalist-fueled frenzy around the "traffic in women". Funny that over a century later absolutely nothing has changed. Even the same word is used for the old moral panic - traffic. https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/goldman/works/1910/traffic-women.htm https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/goldman/works/191...
seany 5y ago
This is fantastic. Now we just need to start picking away at the orgs that push this stuff like NCMEC and just legalize sex work.
woah 5y ago
If only the judge in Ross Ulbricht's case had as much principle and courage. It's another case where the prosecution focused on talking up sensationalist rumors during the trial, rumors that they had no intention of proving.
- tptacek 5y ago
  Which rumors are you referring to? People often say that about the "murder for hire" scheme, in the mistaken belief that Ulbricht wasn't actually charged for that. He was: the murder scheme was an explicit predicate of the conspiracy charge. They did in fact charge him for it. It's right there in the indictment.
  - bc4m 5y ago
    Yes, but they left out explicit murder-for-hire charges in the indictment for that trial. They filed a separate indictment with those charges in a different state which they dropped after the first trial ended. It's not exactly the same but I see a pattern of using an accusation to influence a trial without intending to prove it.
    - tptacek 5y ago
      I don't think that's true. I think the murder-for-hire scheme is a predicate on the conspiracy charge he was ultimately convicted for, in the main trial.
- Fezzik 5y ago
  I think you’re conflating ‘the trial’ with ‘sentencing’ - all the stuff about him trying to hire a hitman was brought up at sentencing (I thought), not during the trial. Under US law almost anything can be brought up as a mitigating or aggravating circumstance at sentencing - whether such facts would be admissible at trial is irrelevant as the rules of evidence do not apply to sentencing. Edit: added the “I thought” - my recollection was the charges related to the hitman-hiring were dropped. I may be misremembering.
pyuser583 5y ago
They were arrested when Obama was President. The federal prosecutors have been delaying. The more the delays, the more it costs to defend.
ummonk 5y ago
I’m not very libertarian, and am open to criminalizing vices for policy reasons where doing so has good societal outcomes even at the expense of personal liberty. Even more importantly, I think internet platforms should be held much more accountable than they currently are for the content they host. So I should be sympathetic to the prosecution here, and yet from the very beginning this case has seemed to be a clear cut example of a witch hunt with prosecutors engaging in bad faith tactics to try to force the defendants to plea when they haven’t committed any crime.
- haroldp 5y ago
  Libertarian here! If you don't really care if you step on a few toes to make the world better overall... Then we should still be on the same side of this issue. I mean say we hate the idea of sex work overall, and there are real problems we can point to that it causes. So we make it illegal. Now we have two problems. It certainly won't stop prostitution. And it's the prohibition that creates the pimps, makes sex workers unable to report crimes to the police, fosters the most unsafe conditions, increases the spread of diseases, creates corruption. No one should support this prohibition.
  - drran 5y ago
    > It certainly won't stop prostitution. Why «certainly»? Why goal to «stop», not to «reduce by 99%»?
    - xboxnolifes 5y ago
      We can be certain, because it's currently illegal and has not stopped.
    - haroldp 5y ago
      What is a plan to reduce it, that hasn't already failed stupendously somewhere in the world?
WoahNoun 5y ago
>"Brnovich said such testimony was allowable only if it involved evidence that Backpage executives and employees knew about it," according to the Arizona Republic. The article continued: >Similarly, Brnovich said that testimony given by Jessika Svendgard, who discussed being sold as a teen on Backpage, went beyond the legal boundaries she set in place. Brnovich said that despite her ruling that prosecutors stay away from day-in-the-life style testimony from any prostitutes or trafficking victims, the government's attorneys succeeded in getting Svendgard to discuss exactly that. >Svendgard told jurors, at times through tears, about being sold on Backpage by a series of pimps. "I would be raped for money," she said. Brnovich said the use of that word "raises a whole new emotional response from people." Apparently the government wasn't supposed to bring up the victim's experience. The retrial will remove this testimony and they will still be convicted for the sheer number of laws they broke.
- sschueller 5y ago
  Couldn't Facebook or greigslist be put on trial for the same thing?
  - pvarangot 5y ago
    Yes and that's what law enforcement agencies use as an argument to strong arm them into closing down services or implementing surveillance technology.
redis_mlc 5y ago
FYI: the States Attorneys are just playing whackamole with services that allow ads for hookers ("moral code violations".) It started with Craigslist and now Backpage. No surprise the case is weak because the goal is to harass platforms one-by-one without solving any kind of social problem. In the US, States Attorneys are elected, so that's the main reason for these cases.
DangitBobby 5y ago
Is there a non-emotional or moralistic argument for why prostitution should be illegal? What is actually the harm, and is it worse than the black market for illegal sex work?
- Dma54rhs 5y ago
  Not that I buy into the argument but that it helps to create more human trafficking and the involuntary part of the trade has a better hiding behind the legal one.
- occamrazor 5y ago
  There is at least one such argument: prostitution as a crime of danger. I try to articulate it below. Prostitution by itself is not wrong, but the social dynamics around it put the prostitutes in a weak position, in which they are at high risk of abuse and exploitation. Under this interpretation, prohibiting prostitution harms the few prostitutes which would mot be abused and their clients, but benefits the majority of prostitutes who would be abused and is overall positive for society. The logical structure of the argument is sound. As a society, we regularly accept to forbid behavior that is not necessarily harmful, but has an very high risk to be, and a limited social value if allowed. Gun laws, speed limits, age of consent laws follow this principle. [Aside: the social benefits of gun ownership are valued more in the US than in Europe, therefore gun laws are more permissive] There are however at least three problems with this argument: 1. It supports punishing pimps and clients, not the prostitutes themselves. This is in fact the approach chisn by e.g. France and Sweden, but not by the US. 1. It assumes that a substantial proportion of prostitutes are exploited or abused and that there are no alternative policies to prevent this. 3. It ignores second order effects. It assumes that forbidding prostitution will eliminate it and doesn’t consider the additional risk of harm resulting from pushing prostitution to the black market.
  - matt-attack 5y ago
    Seems like all the risks you just associated with not-prohibiting prostitution would also apply to farming. Given its deplorable history in the US vis-a-vis slavery, it seems to be we can’t possibly risk more individuals being exploited in such a manner. Granted I’d concede that farming has substantial benefits, but frankly so does sex to those who cannot obtain it socially. Arguably the need for sex is tantamount to the need for food itself.
vmception 5y ago
Good judge Some judges do not care if something inflames the jury
throwawaymanbot 5y ago
The Facebook CEO Should be on trail too if all this is true about backpage? The similarities are immense.
Handytinge 5y ago
It's bizarre that prostitution is illegal in an allegedly progressive, western country like the USA. From an outsiders perspective, this is comparable to burning witches. Is there a reason for this beyond ideals from the middle ages and pearl clutching?

282 points by LinuxBender 5y ago

Doesn't matter though. The web property was taken down, and safer-ish sex work suffered a set back. Sex trafficking is the new "terrorism" whereby the government or other organizations can allege it, and the targeted entity is pretty much SOL.

rhizome 5y ago
It's definitely "other organizations" that are the engine of this stuff.
- commoner 5y ago
  One of those "other organizations" is the NCMEC, which was established by[1] and heavily funded by[2] the U.S. Congress. NCMEC has consistently tried to impede the implementation of end-to-end encryption. Even before the Apple/iCloud debacle, the NCMEC pushed tech companies to prohibit users under 18 from using end-to-end encryption:[3] > On February 20, 2020, NCMEC released an open letter to the technology industry outlining five Principles to Safeguard Children in End-to-End Encrypted Environments. > - Do not implement end-to-end encrypted communications for accounts where a user has indicated they are under 18 years old. Restricting children from secure communications is an especially user-hostile way to advocate against child abuse. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20121029010231/http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PageServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&PageId=4362 https://web.archive.org/web/20121029010231/http://www.missin... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_Children%27s_Assistance_Reauthorization_Act_of_2013 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_Children%27s_Assistanc... [3] https://www.missingkids.org/e2ee https://www.missingkids.org/e2ee
  - ethanbond 5y ago
    Given that children have attenuated rights in basically every society, restricting access to E2EE seems like an imperfect but deeply net positive way to reduce child harm. What “savory” actions for which a minor would use E2EE are you concerned are jeopardized by such a proposal? (Particularly interested in what actions or content is jeopardized, not the ideal of privacy, which I agree is important even for minors)
    - commoner 5y ago
      Preventing children from using E2EE is not a "net positive" just as preventing adults from using E2EE is also not a "net positive". Privacy is a human right, not a right that should be made exclusive to adults. Just because children are restricted from other activities does not make it justified to restrict their rights further. End-to-end encryption helps prevent messages from being intercepted by intermediaries, such as companies and governments. For example, an advocate (for human rights, environment, or any other cause) who is under 18 may wish to coordinate a protest or some other activity while minimizing exposure to surveillance from potential adversaries. Or in a more ordinary example, children may want to communicate with others without being profiled by advertisers or government agencies through the content of their messages. Secure communications are as valuable to children as they are to adults.
      - pyuser583 5y ago
        I review my daughters devices regularly. She has encounters extremely predatory content - basically groomers reaching out to see who will bite. As a parent, I have a right to review my childs communications. If she had been using end to end crypto, it’s likely these communications would have auto deleted. That’s the thing about end to end: it isn’t just about a stopping surveillance in real time. It auto destructs the message. That’s makes parental oversight extremely difficult.
        pseudalopex 5y ago
        The only connection between disappearing messages and end to end encryption is they're both privacy features.
dkdk8283 5y ago
I have personal experience with Backpage. They had a team of 70 analysts on staff to review all ads and were the #1 source of trafficking tips. I believe the bp owner got into a pissing match with the AZ DA and eventually lost. Many people who hide behind the US government are scumbags. Fuck FOSTA/SESTA too.
- seneca 5y ago
  Strongly agree with the sentiment of your post. I'm curious how you came about the information that they were the #1 source of trafficking tips. That seems like the government killing a golden goose (not that that is surprising in any way).
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    It depends. If they thought that backpage enabled/induced trafficking, then them being a top source of tips isn’t that valuable. Would you let a drug dealer run a meth lab if he reported his customers for prosecution? You can argue with my analogy, and I don’t quite agree with it myself, but I can see the government seeing it that way.
    - setr 5y ago
      Doesn’t the three-letters do that like… all the time? That’s basically the definition of honeypotting As I recall, the FBI did exactly that fairly recently, when they pwned some credit card trading site and ran it themselves for years.
      - bigiain 5y ago
        They ran a child porn dark web site for two weeks: "Playpen was a notorious darknet child pornography website that operated from August 2014 to March 2015.[1][2] The website operated through a hidden service through the Tor network which allowed users to use the website anonymously. After running the website for 6 months, the website owner Steven W. Chase was captured by the FBI. After his capture, the FBI continued to run the website for another 13 days as part of Operation Pacifier." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playpen_(website) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playpen_(website)
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
2 weeks ago, it became a felony in Texas to pay for sex. Unlike most of the other batshit laws passed in Texas this year, this one had wide bipartisan support. As a gay man, while this is just anecdotal, it seems to me that the dynamics of gay prostitution are very different from most straight prostitution. I used to think it quite sad to hear about gay men paying for sex. I mean, these days, it is extremely easy for gay men to find other gay men to have sex with, for free, as long as you're willing to have sex with guys who generally look like you do. Then I had some friends who had escorted at some point, and they explained the dynamic. Quite simply, many of the "johns" were older, and they basically wanted a hot, younger guy to have sex with them (of course there were other types, for example closeted men). None of the guys I knew who escorted ever felt coerced into doing it, beyond the fact that they needed money, and to them it was an easy way to get money. Of course, I'm sure there are guys who did feel pressured into doing it, and sex trafficking does occur. But there are still many, perfectly consenting adults who pay for sex as part of "the world's oldest profession". We should stop this moral panic and focus laws to help actual victims of sex trafficking.
- voltaireodactyl 5y ago
  Just for the record, all the specifics you've listed with regard to gay prostitution also apply to heterosexual prostitution, to my best understanding. That is to say, much of the clientele are older men who just want a hot, younger woman to have sex with them. There are also other types. Some female escorts do not feel coerced, while another significant percentage certainly do. I would imagine that's the same on both front as well. While I totally recognize that male prostitutes are perhaps more likely to be able to resist physical aggression, and therefore have a bit more agency (which I think may have been the point you were leading toward), I think the moral panic crosses all borders, and I agree that once (if) we take that out of the equation, the rest of the conversation becomes much easier.
- bongoman37 5y ago
  Did they also outlaw taking a woman out on an expensive date?
  - 5y ago
throwaway91321 5y ago
To add to this, "sex trafficking" to most people means "sex slavery," but if you look at the definition it's a broad term that includes things like helping a prostitute immigrate illegally. And then law enforcement takes things a step further, often referring to any form of prostitution as "sex trafficking" because they know that if they simply call it prostitution, most people won't see the big problem. It's gotten to the point where I'm skeptical of any news stories I read where authorities are claiming "sex trafficking." It's simply astounding how many of those, if you follow-up on them, end up being simple prostitution cases in the end, with the supposed victims being charged by authorities for engaging in prostitution. The Robert Kraft case is a good recent example. Authorities made a big announcement of saying Kraft and other men were involved in a sex trafficking ring, and the media uncritically spread their claims. If you look at online comments from the time, most people assume that Kraft and others were taking advantage of unwilling sex slaves. But months later the charges against the men were dropped, and the only people that ended up being punished were the women themselves, for prostitution. Authorities have a habit of making a big deceitful announcement that they're saving these women, then when the public and media attention goes elsewhere, the women are the ones the authorities end up punishing.
- nullifidian 5y ago
  "But anti-prostitution activists like Hughes often use “sexual exploitation” to include any kind of prostitution or sex work—in fact, Hughes insists in her article that "trafficking occurs even if the woman consents.” " https://newrepublic.com/article/123302/human-trafficking-has-become-meaningless-term https://newrepublic.com/article/123302/human-trafficking-has...
  - MomoXenosaga 5y ago
    The fact is that people are desperate for money. And when you're a 20 year old you have something that you can sell that earns money. Prostitution is the oldest job in the world as they say. Only a Star Trek post scarcity economic miracle will eradicate it.
    - 5y ago

InvaderFizz 5y ago

This entire case puts the government in a really bad light once you start looking into it. Recommended reading: https://www.wired.com/story/inside-backpage-vicious-battle-feds/ https://www.wired.com/story/inside-backpage-vicious-battle-f... There was an excellent thread on this by @AshleyLatke on Twitter, but they have made their entire timeline private, so I can't link it.

rpmisms 5y ago
> This entire case puts the government in a really bad light once you start looking into it. If I had a nickel for every time I heard that... The SEC would probably open their own investigation into me.
- valzam 5y ago
  As long as you don't promise the people giving you nickels a dime back...
- RNCTX 5y ago
  Another rabbit hole worth a stroll into is the Garland, Texas "ISIS" shooting in 2015. By "ISIS" we mean "FBI orchestrated, which we know because an undercover was waiting in the parking lot for the shooters to get there and had been texting them before they even set foot in Texas." For some strange reason, a judicial appointee to the ND Texas Fed District Court took it upon herself, immediately, on her first case the day after she was sworn in, to dismiss the security guard who got shot's lawsuit against the FBI/DOJ and James Comey specifically. You can read a glowing hagiography about her being a good Republican diversity hire in the Dallas Morning News, or you can read stories about that opinion (checking notes...) nowhere outside of one D.C. blog.
  - the-dude 5y ago
    The rabbit hole gets deeper when you look into other 'terror' events in which the spooks are either aware or involved.

avs733 5y ago

I’m surprised they actually got the mistrial. Prosecutorial misconduct is one of the fundamental problems facing this country…it transcends many issues dear to the left and the right.

rectang 5y ago
Backpage shut down its adult services section back in January 2017. The defendants may have gotten a mistrial eventually, but they've lost years of their lives.
- avs733 5y ago
  exactly. And their recourse against that over reach is what? The backpage attack tracks with every other government action that uses law enforcement for moralizing.
jtdev 5y ago
The recent trial of a certain Minneapolis police officer was riddled with prosecutorial misconduct… and due to the political shit storm surrounding the case, the misconduct was ignored or denied at every turn.
- jfrunyon 5y ago
  Like?
  - jtdev 5y ago
    Failure to grant a change of venue which resulted in intimidation of defenses expert witnesses (and subsequently impacted defenses ability to procure witnesses)... Disparaging the defense in the presence of the jury. Failure to sequester the jury throughout the trial. etc.
    - avs733 5y ago
      Prosecutors don’t grant change of venue requests… Are you suggesting the courts in this country are unfair? I’m shocked. Maybe this would have more credibility if Black marijuana users were granted such a strident public defense of bad faith police and prosecutorial actions. Frankly, I’m a strong believer that many of the rights we as the public hold should not be granted to police officers. Presumption of innoncence? Nope…you are empowered by the state to enact violence, should we really rely on the courts, other state agents to act appropriately? Why?

bgorman 5y ago

If anyone is unfamiliar with the case, this is a textbook example of government overreach and lying to the public. There is little reason to believe any of the claims against backpage are true. One of the main people responsible for this is Kamala Harris. Source: https://reason.com/2019/08/26/secret-memos-show-the-government-has-been-lying-about-backpage/ https://reason.com/2019/08/26/secret-memos-show-the-governme...

em3rgent0rdr 5y ago
It is sad as far as I can tell the main reason you are getting downvoted is because you mentioned the name of the top prosecutor who unjustly arrested the Backpage founders on trumped up charges.
- jtdev 5y ago
  We live in an era where politics correctness is worshipped as a god and speaking truth is treated as an apostolic act.
  - wesleywt 5y ago
    Ah the right wings moral panic.

VictorPath 5y ago

Over a century ago, Emma Goldman was an organizer trying to improve the lives of working class men and women. She wrote about the upper middle class liberal, politician-and-yellow-journalist-fueled frenzy around the "traffic in women". Funny that over a century later absolutely nothing has changed. Even the same word is used for the old moral panic - traffic. https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/goldman/works/1910/traffic-women.htm https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/goldman/works/191...

seany 5y ago

This is fantastic. Now we just need to start picking away at the orgs that push this stuff like NCMEC and just legalize sex work.

woah 5y ago

If only the judge in Ross Ulbricht's case had as much principle and courage. It's another case where the prosecution focused on talking up sensationalist rumors during the trial, rumors that they had no intention of proving.

tptacek 5y ago
Which rumors are you referring to? People often say that about the "murder for hire" scheme, in the mistaken belief that Ulbricht wasn't actually charged for that. He was: the murder scheme was an explicit predicate of the conspiracy charge. They did in fact charge him for it. It's right there in the indictment.
- bc4m 5y ago
  Yes, but they left out explicit murder-for-hire charges in the indictment for that trial. They filed a separate indictment with those charges in a different state which they dropped after the first trial ended. It's not exactly the same but I see a pattern of using an accusation to influence a trial without intending to prove it.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    I don't think that's true. I think the murder-for-hire scheme is a predicate on the conspiracy charge he was ultimately convicted for, in the main trial.
Fezzik 5y ago
I think you’re conflating ‘the trial’ with ‘sentencing’ - all the stuff about him trying to hire a hitman was brought up at sentencing (I thought), not during the trial. Under US law almost anything can be brought up as a mitigating or aggravating circumstance at sentencing - whether such facts would be admissible at trial is irrelevant as the rules of evidence do not apply to sentencing. Edit: added the “I thought” - my recollection was the charges related to the hitman-hiring were dropped. I may be misremembering.

pyuser583 5y ago

They were arrested when Obama was President. The federal prosecutors have been delaying. The more the delays, the more it costs to defend.

ummonk 5y ago

I’m not very libertarian, and am open to criminalizing vices for policy reasons where doing so has good societal outcomes even at the expense of personal liberty. Even more importantly, I think internet platforms should be held much more accountable than they currently are for the content they host. So I should be sympathetic to the prosecution here, and yet from the very beginning this case has seemed to be a clear cut example of a witch hunt with prosecutors engaging in bad faith tactics to try to force the defendants to plea when they haven’t committed any crime.

haroldp 5y ago
Libertarian here! If you don't really care if you step on a few toes to make the world better overall... Then we should still be on the same side of this issue. I mean say we hate the idea of sex work overall, and there are real problems we can point to that it causes. So we make it illegal. Now we have two problems. It certainly won't stop prostitution. And it's the prohibition that creates the pimps, makes sex workers unable to report crimes to the police, fosters the most unsafe conditions, increases the spread of diseases, creates corruption. No one should support this prohibition.
- drran 5y ago
  > It certainly won't stop prostitution. Why «certainly»? Why goal to «stop», not to «reduce by 99%»?
  - xboxnolifes 5y ago
    We can be certain, because it's currently illegal and has not stopped.
  - haroldp 5y ago
    What is a plan to reduce it, that hasn't already failed stupendously somewhere in the world?

WoahNoun 5y ago

>"Brnovich said such testimony was allowable only if it involved evidence that Backpage executives and employees knew about it," according to the Arizona Republic. The article continued: >Similarly, Brnovich said that testimony given by Jessika Svendgard, who discussed being sold as a teen on Backpage, went beyond the legal boundaries she set in place. Brnovich said that despite her ruling that prosecutors stay away from day-in-the-life style testimony from any prostitutes or trafficking victims, the government's attorneys succeeded in getting Svendgard to discuss exactly that. >Svendgard told jurors, at times through tears, about being sold on Backpage by a series of pimps. "I would be raped for money," she said. Brnovich said the use of that word "raises a whole new emotional response from people." Apparently the government wasn't supposed to bring up the victim's experience. The retrial will remove this testimony and they will still be convicted for the sheer number of laws they broke.

sschueller 5y ago
Couldn't Facebook or greigslist be put on trial for the same thing?
- pvarangot 5y ago
  Yes and that's what law enforcement agencies use as an argument to strong arm them into closing down services or implementing surveillance technology.

redis_mlc 5y ago

FYI: the States Attorneys are just playing whackamole with services that allow ads for hookers ("moral code violations".) It started with Craigslist and now Backpage. No surprise the case is weak because the goal is to harass platforms one-by-one without solving any kind of social problem. In the US, States Attorneys are elected, so that's the main reason for these cases.

DangitBobby 5y ago

Is there a non-emotional or moralistic argument for why prostitution should be illegal? What is actually the harm, and is it worse than the black market for illegal sex work?

Dma54rhs 5y ago
Not that I buy into the argument but that it helps to create more human trafficking and the involuntary part of the trade has a better hiding behind the legal one.
occamrazor 5y ago
There is at least one such argument: prostitution as a crime of danger. I try to articulate it below. Prostitution by itself is not wrong, but the social dynamics around it put the prostitutes in a weak position, in which they are at high risk of abuse and exploitation. Under this interpretation, prohibiting prostitution harms the few prostitutes which would mot be abused and their clients, but benefits the majority of prostitutes who would be abused and is overall positive for society. The logical structure of the argument is sound. As a society, we regularly accept to forbid behavior that is not necessarily harmful, but has an very high risk to be, and a limited social value if allowed. Gun laws, speed limits, age of consent laws follow this principle. [Aside: the social benefits of gun ownership are valued more in the US than in Europe, therefore gun laws are more permissive] There are however at least three problems with this argument: 1. It supports punishing pimps and clients, not the prostitutes themselves. This is in fact the approach chisn by e.g. France and Sweden, but not by the US. 1. It assumes that a substantial proportion of prostitutes are exploited or abused and that there are no alternative policies to prevent this. 3. It ignores second order effects. It assumes that forbidding prostitution will eliminate it and doesn’t consider the additional risk of harm resulting from pushing prostitution to the black market.
- matt-attack 5y ago
  Seems like all the risks you just associated with not-prohibiting prostitution would also apply to farming. Given its deplorable history in the US vis-a-vis slavery, it seems to be we can’t possibly risk more individuals being exploited in such a manner. Granted I’d concede that farming has substantial benefits, but frankly so does sex to those who cannot obtain it socially. Arguably the need for sex is tantamount to the need for food itself.

vmception 5y ago

Good judge Some judges do not care if something inflames the jury

throwawaymanbot 5y ago

The Facebook CEO Should be on trail too if all this is true about backpage? The similarities are immense.

Handytinge 5y ago

It's bizarre that prostitution is illegal in an allegedly progressive, western country like the USA. From an outsiders perspective, this is comparable to burning witches. Is there a reason for this beyond ideals from the middle ages and pearl clutching?