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The risk of lithium ion fire is very obvious and real. But to decide if this is a problem relative to the current alternatives (gasoline) we would need to compa

The risk of lithium ion fire is very obvious and real. But to decide if this is a problem relative to the current alternatives (gasoline) we would need to compare the rates and severity of fires between the two. Gasoline cars also have complicated parts to help mitigate their fire risk.

philwelch 5y ago
I’ve never heard of a gas tank spontaneously bursting into flames.
- eloff 5y ago
  There are about 160,000 fires involving personal internal combustion engine vehicles per year.
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    I think the key word there was "spontaneous", along with the relative danger and difficulty of dealing with them. An EV fire can take 24 hours to secure. A gasoline car takes about 300 gallons of water. I'm not saying EV fires are a bigger issue than gasoline cars. I'm saying that you cannot look merely at incident rate to determine the issue.
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      I would say that's an advantage for EVs. I'd rather have fires that are slow to start and slow to put out than the opposite.
      - falcolas 5y ago
        I’m not sure, it’s 24 hours of constant monitoring and fire suppression from a trained fire crew. Not something that’s scalable.
        stryker7001 5y ago
        Where did you hear 24 hours. Sounds anecdotal. All fire crews are trained. Are you saying there are untrained firefighters? Do you think that you in your tech job are more aware of fires than a firefighter.
        Dma54rhs 5y ago
        A lot of smaller fires are put out by fellow passages after the crash. At least here everyone has an obligatory fire extinguisher in their trunks. Real fire crew arrives later and makes sure its all safe.
        falcolas 5y ago
        > Where did you hear 24 hours. Sounds anecdotal. Tesla. https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Model_S_Emergency_Response_Guide_en.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Mod...
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - JshWright 5y ago
    How many of those are due to the ICE? In my experience most vehicle fires are electrical in nature, whether it's an EV or not (the 12v system in an ICE car can still cause a fire).
    - ReGenGen 5y ago
      Ethanol gasoline degrades older vehicle's rubber fuel lines, This has lead to many fuel fires.
      - JshWright 5y ago
        Yeah, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying it's very infrequent in my experience (~15 years as a firefighter). Electrical issues, accidental fires in the passenger compartment (cigarettes/joints igniting trash in the footwell), and even arson are all far more common than fuel system issues.
  - falcolas 5y ago
    So, there’s a guaranteed recipe for starting an engine fire (though from oil, not gasoline): Icy hill, and idiot drivers holding their engine at max revs for a few minutes to try and conquer them. The heat destroys the seals, oil leaks out, and combusts on the hot block. Which makes me wonder, how would an EV handle the same poor driving conditions?
    - gpm 5y ago
      I think you'd just heat up the battery pack until the cooling system couldn't keep up, and then it would automatically limit the output to prevent the battery from overheating. Apparently racing tesla's on tracks has the same thing happen. It's not obvious to me how you could cause an ev to fail catastrophically like that, because they do have sensors to detect overheating in the battery. I guess in theory you could also do something like catch the tires on fire from too much friction...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- amznthrwaway 5y ago
  It’s trivial to find examples of cars bursting into flames. https://abc7chicago.com/bmw-car-fires-vehicle-what-causes-per-year/5121834/ https://abc7chicago.com/bmw-car-fires-vehicle-what-causes-pe...
- kbenson 5y ago
  Given gas cans often need a flame arrestor to keep the same happening from gas stored in garages, and that often wasn't included in cheap versions but was in commercial versions for many decades, my guess is that it happened and might still happen.
- kjksf 5y ago
  https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/bmw-adds-nearly-185-000-vehicles-recall-over-fire-risk-n995836 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/bmw-adds-nearly-185-0... "BMW is adding nearly 185,000 vehicles to a 2017 recall for possible engine fires. Two years ago the company recommended that the vehicles be parked outdoors until problems are fixed." Now you have heard.
  - acmdas 5y ago
    "engine fires..." not gas tanks.
- wombatpm 5y ago
  80’s television taught me that virtually every rollover accident will result in a vehicle explosion.
djur 5y ago
Not to mention the chronic illnesses and deaths reduced by taking ICE vehicles off the street.

philwelch 5y ago

I’ve never heard of a gas tank spontaneously bursting into flames.

eloff 5y ago
There are about 160,000 fires involving personal internal combustion engine vehicles per year.
- ineedasername 5y ago
  I think the key word there was "spontaneous", along with the relative danger and difficulty of dealing with them. An EV fire can take 24 hours to secure. A gasoline car takes about 300 gallons of water. I'm not saying EV fires are a bigger issue than gasoline cars. I'm saying that you cannot look merely at incident rate to determine the issue.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    I would say that's an advantage for EVs. I'd rather have fires that are slow to start and slow to put out than the opposite.
    - falcolas 5y ago
      I’m not sure, it’s 24 hours of constant monitoring and fire suppression from a trained fire crew. Not something that’s scalable.
      - stryker7001 5y ago
        Where did you hear 24 hours. Sounds anecdotal. All fire crews are trained. Are you saying there are untrained firefighters? Do you think that you in your tech job are more aware of fires than a firefighter.
        Dma54rhs 5y ago
        A lot of smaller fires are put out by fellow passages after the crash. At least here everyone has an obligatory fire extinguisher in their trunks. Real fire crew arrives later and makes sure its all safe.
        falcolas 5y ago
        > Where did you hear 24 hours. Sounds anecdotal. Tesla. https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Model_S_Emergency_Response_Guide_en.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Mod...
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- JshWright 5y ago
  How many of those are due to the ICE? In my experience most vehicle fires are electrical in nature, whether it's an EV or not (the 12v system in an ICE car can still cause a fire).
  - ReGenGen 5y ago
    Ethanol gasoline degrades older vehicle's rubber fuel lines, This has lead to many fuel fires.
    - JshWright 5y ago
      Yeah, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying it's very infrequent in my experience (~15 years as a firefighter). Electrical issues, accidental fires in the passenger compartment (cigarettes/joints igniting trash in the footwell), and even arson are all far more common than fuel system issues.
- falcolas 5y ago
  So, there’s a guaranteed recipe for starting an engine fire (though from oil, not gasoline): Icy hill, and idiot drivers holding their engine at max revs for a few minutes to try and conquer them. The heat destroys the seals, oil leaks out, and combusts on the hot block. Which makes me wonder, how would an EV handle the same poor driving conditions?
  - gpm 5y ago
    I think you'd just heat up the battery pack until the cooling system couldn't keep up, and then it would automatically limit the output to prevent the battery from overheating. Apparently racing tesla's on tracks has the same thing happen. It's not obvious to me how you could cause an ev to fail catastrophically like that, because they do have sensors to detect overheating in the battery. I guess in theory you could also do something like catch the tires on fire from too much friction...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
amznthrwaway 5y ago
It’s trivial to find examples of cars bursting into flames. https://abc7chicago.com/bmw-car-fires-vehicle-what-causes-per-year/5121834/ https://abc7chicago.com/bmw-car-fires-vehicle-what-causes-pe...
kbenson 5y ago
Given gas cans often need a flame arrestor to keep the same happening from gas stored in garages, and that often wasn't included in cheap versions but was in commercial versions for many decades, my guess is that it happened and might still happen.
kjksf 5y ago
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/bmw-adds-nearly-185-000-vehicles-recall-over-fire-risk-n995836 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/bmw-adds-nearly-185-0... "BMW is adding nearly 185,000 vehicles to a 2017 recall for possible engine fires. Two years ago the company recommended that the vehicles be parked outdoors until problems are fixed." Now you have heard.
- acmdas 5y ago
  "engine fires..." not gas tanks.
wombatpm 5y ago
80’s television taught me that virtually every rollover accident will result in a vehicle explosion.

djur 5y ago

Not to mention the chronic illnesses and deaths reduced by taking ICE vehicles off the street.