5 ms·

I would think the well publicized early failures of large Lithium ion battery technology (787 burning down while docked at a gate, the various Tesla fires and S

I would think the well publicized early failures of large Lithium ion battery technology (787 burning down while docked at a gate, the various Tesla fires and Samsung Note phones being banned from planes) would have taught enough lessons to eliminate these risks in the future. I haven't dug into the details of the "manufacturing defect" at LG's battery plants - seems like a failure in Quality Control. I also don't know why GM cannot just bring in the battery packs and test/replace the faulty cells, unless the problem is so widespread it affects ALL cells in all packs.

scardycat 5y ago
They did try replacing faulty cells and modules before the full recall, even though other manufacturers using the same LG cells were doing a full recall and replace. They also tried software fixes. I dont know enough to understand why it did not work.
- mastazi 5y ago
  Probably the replacement program and the associated logistics were too expensive and the recall was an easier solution in terms of costs/benefits. Not sure about the PR costs this will cause though.
- cptskippy 5y ago
  They identified 2 defects and both defects were occurring in cells produced at multiple factories. That implies the defects were part of the process and not simply and issue with the setup of a single manufacturing line. It also implies that potentially all cells manufactured could have the defects.
epistasis 5y ago
I've heard that this is the reason that all the future major lithium ion companies have already been founded. Learning all the really hard lessons about QC and how to prevent fires and defects takes more experience and knowledge and time than any new competitor could devote to catching up.
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  That’s not how these industries work. The new kids on the block start with talent, largely hired from the more established players.
  - epistasis 5y ago
    Well, good luck hiring away enough of a team in the foreseeable future... That's one of the major bottlenecks in the industry at the moment.
    - imwillofficial 5y ago
      Don’t shoot the messenger
hangonhn 5y ago
Anyone know who's financially responsible in cases like that? LG, GM, or shared between the two? I've heard the recall is in excess of 1 billion.
- robotbikes 5y ago
  I believe GM is footing the bill but hoping to then get LG to pay it because the defects are in LGs manufacturing and not in GMs design.
cptskippy 5y ago
There are two defects, a torn anode tab and a folded separator. They implied both defects were occurring simultaneously in a cell but didn't indicate if all cells are affected. They did however identify that the issues came from multiple factories in the US and Korea, which indicates the problem might be with every single cell manufactured. GM said they don't trust the stock of packs they have in warehouses or any installed in EVs. They are requiring LG to implement GM's level of QC, which we must presume is higher than LG's existing QC. No batteries will be fixed in any EV until GM is confident that LG can actually manufacture the cells without defect. At that point in sounds like all packs will we fully swapped in all EVs made.
rootusrootus 5y ago
> I also don't know why GM cannot just bring in the battery packs and test/replace the faulty cells, unless the problem is so widespread it affects ALL cells in all packs. My understanding is that they haven't got a way to easily detect which cells have the defects and which are fine. But that they are working on it, and may be close to a solution.
- pavon 5y ago
  The only known ways to detect the defect involve x-raying the battery or destructive disassembly. They could theoretically send the batteries back to a centralized location for testing and refurbishment with 2019-2021 models, but it isn't clear that would save them any money, and they already promised new batteries to owners of 2017-2019* models. My understanding is that what they are really working on is a cost effective way to check for the defect on new batteries leaving the LG plant, so they can be confident that the replacements don't have the same problem. * Some 2019 models were included in first recall, others in the second, based on where the batteries were manufactured.

scardycat 5y ago

They did try replacing faulty cells and modules before the full recall, even though other manufacturers using the same LG cells were doing a full recall and replace. They also tried software fixes. I dont know enough to understand why it did not work.

mastazi 5y ago
Probably the replacement program and the associated logistics were too expensive and the recall was an easier solution in terms of costs/benefits. Not sure about the PR costs this will cause though.
cptskippy 5y ago
They identified 2 defects and both defects were occurring in cells produced at multiple factories. That implies the defects were part of the process and not simply and issue with the setup of a single manufacturing line. It also implies that potentially all cells manufactured could have the defects.

epistasis 5y ago

I've heard that this is the reason that all the future major lithium ion companies have already been founded. Learning all the really hard lessons about QC and how to prevent fires and defects takes more experience and knowledge and time than any new competitor could devote to catching up.

imwillofficial 5y ago
That’s not how these industries work. The new kids on the block start with talent, largely hired from the more established players.
- epistasis 5y ago
  Well, good luck hiring away enough of a team in the foreseeable future... That's one of the major bottlenecks in the industry at the moment.
  - imwillofficial 5y ago
    Don’t shoot the messenger

hangonhn 5y ago

Anyone know who's financially responsible in cases like that? LG, GM, or shared between the two? I've heard the recall is in excess of 1 billion.

robotbikes 5y ago
I believe GM is footing the bill but hoping to then get LG to pay it because the defects are in LGs manufacturing and not in GMs design.

cptskippy 5y ago

There are two defects, a torn anode tab and a folded separator. They implied both defects were occurring simultaneously in a cell but didn't indicate if all cells are affected. They did however identify that the issues came from multiple factories in the US and Korea, which indicates the problem might be with every single cell manufactured. GM said they don't trust the stock of packs they have in warehouses or any installed in EVs. They are requiring LG to implement GM's level of QC, which we must presume is higher than LG's existing QC. No batteries will be fixed in any EV until GM is confident that LG can actually manufacture the cells without defect. At that point in sounds like all packs will we fully swapped in all EVs made.

rootusrootus 5y ago

> I also don't know why GM cannot just bring in the battery packs and test/replace the faulty cells, unless the problem is so widespread it affects ALL cells in all packs. My understanding is that they haven't got a way to easily detect which cells have the defects and which are fine. But that they are working on it, and may be close to a solution.

pavon 5y ago
The only known ways to detect the defect involve x-raying the battery or destructive disassembly. They could theoretically send the batteries back to a centralized location for testing and refurbishment with 2019-2021 models, but it isn't clear that would save them any money, and they already promised new batteries to owners of 2017-2019* models. My understanding is that what they are really working on is a cost effective way to check for the defect on new batteries leaving the LG plant, so they can be confident that the replacements don't have the same problem. * Some 2019 models were included in first recall, others in the second, based on where the batteries were manufactured.