7 ms·

Learning Lisp - Why?

14 points by ecounysis 15y ago

ecounysis 15y ago
"Learning Lisp is for the programmer what meditation is for the Buddhist monk ..." http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4724/learning-lisp-why/27656#27656 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4724/learning-lisp-why/27...
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
maeon3 15y ago
Has there been ANY programs written in lisp that has risen to the status of anything more than novelty? IBM's watson, the best thing we got going for artificial intelligence, is it written in lisp? NO, it's written in java. The link from lisp to artificial intelligence is a lie. Lisp is just a very poor language, it's designed to get eager novices working on things that are irrelevant so they will learn (the hard way) that being a good programmer means laughing at the people who promote lisp as "an epic language". Lisp had its day, somewhere back in the 1950's/1960's. That day is gone. If I'm working on any sort of problem needing a programming solution, and someone suggests we use lisp, I buy that person a copy of "The pragmatic Programmer", and tell them to read it closely.
- gfodor 15y ago
  Clojure is going to provide the true test to see if CL and Scheme's failure to take over the world is due to inherent problems with lisp or just inertia due to lack of 3rd party library support. With startups like BackType and FlightCaster getting acquired, it's a positive sign.
  - SkyMarshal 15y ago
    I'm looking forward to seeing how Clojure improves with invokedynamic in Java 7, and lambdas and closures in Java 8. Hope the ramp to maturity for a Java 8-based Clojure is a quick one.
  - mtraven 15y ago
    There have been Common Lisp and Scheme implementations in the JVM for ages (Kawa, ABCL, and many others -- I wrote one myself called Skij). It's not clear to me why Clojure took off when those others didn't. But if reinventing Lisp is what it takes for Lisp to get traction, I'm for it despite my CL roots.
- tresta 15y ago
  emacs is written in lisp (and some c for the interpreter), and it must be considered more than a novelty. And autocad uses its own version of lisp (autolisp) as a scripting language. Edit: There are also the Lisp Machines from the 80's (a bit old, yes, I know) [1]. And the Jak and Daxter series of games[2] [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machines [2] - https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Game_Oriented...
- jimminy 15y ago
  Viaweb?
- ohyes 15y ago
  >Has[ve] there been ANY programs written in lisp that has risen to the status of anything more than novelty? Yes.
- pg 15y ago
  Has there been ANY programs written in lisp that has risen to the status of anything more than novelty? The program you used to post that question is written in Lisp. HN probably counts as more than a novelty by this point.
  - thiefmaster 15y ago
    Surely most of the software running this site is simply HTML with some basic data movement and storage going on in the backend. I'm not sure this really even qualifies as 'software' ;) It could have been written in php/asp/python/perl etc and would have functioned exactly the same, be about the same lines of code, as maintainable, as prone to bugs and so on. In fact, I seem to remember Reddit rewrote from lisp to python in a weekend?...
    - pg 15y ago
      If you haven't looked the source, and therefore don't know what it does or how long it is, how can you know whether it would be the same length translated into other languages?
      - o1iver 15y ago
        He can't, so he is just making an assumption (whether from experience or not, who knows). But I would be interested in some information about the HN codebase... Is it shorter? Less error-prone? Simpler?
        noblethrasher 15y ago
        https://github.com/nex3/arc/blob/master/news.arc https://github.com/nex3/arc/blob/master/news.arc
      - thiefmaster 15y ago
        Lines of code is probably the wrong term for me to use. Since it's bogus. (Depends on how much the language provides, libraries, etc and doesn't necessarily capture program complexity). A more accurate term would be "Required programming effort". Would you agree that it would take a similar amount of effort for a proficient PHP programmer to write HN, as a proficient Lisp programmer etc? FWIW, I have just looked at the source and IMHO I'd expect it to be extremely similar in PHP/other languages.
- spacemanaki 15y ago
  "If I'm working on any sort of problem needing a programming solution, and someone suggests we use lisp, I buy that person a copy of "The pragmatic Programmer", and tell them to read it closely." Then I'd recommend you go back and read it closely yourself, because there's an entire chapter on domain-specific programming which includes tips on implementing mini-languages to write code close to the problem space, which is a very Lispy suggestion.
- mtraven 15y ago
  Doesn't ITA count? (Powers Orbitz, acquired by Google for a fairly significant amount of money). Also see here: http://www.franz.com/success/ http://www.franz.com/success/
- route66 15y ago
  "lie", "things that are irrelevant" ... Opinionated words. I have not read the pragmatic programmer, but I fear that you just gave it a bad rap.
neutronicus 15y ago
I learned Common Lisp to see what all the fuss was about, and I don't regret it. I think most claims in its favor are hyperbole, but the Lisp implementations are very nice pieces of technology, providing features comparable to CPython with approximately the performance of Java. I almost always find myself missing some feature of the Common Lisp environment when working on more lucrative endeavors.
bendmorris 15y ago
Stack Overflow is down for maintenance, so here's a cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:QfU7Ls3W0SIJ:stackoverflow.com/questions/4724/learning-lisp-why+http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4724/learning-lisp-why&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:QfU7Ls3...
ecounysis 15y ago
"Lisp is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience you will have when you finally get it; that experience will make you a better programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never actually use Lisp itself a lot." - Eric S. Raymond, "How to Become a Hacker" http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html

14 points by ecounysis 15y ago

"Learning Lisp is for the programmer what meditation is for the Buddhist monk ..." http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4724/learning-lisp-why/27656#27656 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4724/learning-lisp-why/27...

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

maeon3 15y ago

Has there been ANY programs written in lisp that has risen to the status of anything more than novelty? IBM's watson, the best thing we got going for artificial intelligence, is it written in lisp? NO, it's written in java. The link from lisp to artificial intelligence is a lie. Lisp is just a very poor language, it's designed to get eager novices working on things that are irrelevant so they will learn (the hard way) that being a good programmer means laughing at the people who promote lisp as "an epic language". Lisp had its day, somewhere back in the 1950's/1960's. That day is gone. If I'm working on any sort of problem needing a programming solution, and someone suggests we use lisp, I buy that person a copy of "The pragmatic Programmer", and tell them to read it closely.

gfodor 15y ago
Clojure is going to provide the true test to see if CL and Scheme's failure to take over the world is due to inherent problems with lisp or just inertia due to lack of 3rd party library support. With startups like BackType and FlightCaster getting acquired, it's a positive sign.
- SkyMarshal 15y ago
  I'm looking forward to seeing how Clojure improves with invokedynamic in Java 7, and lambdas and closures in Java 8. Hope the ramp to maturity for a Java 8-based Clojure is a quick one.
- mtraven 15y ago
  There have been Common Lisp and Scheme implementations in the JVM for ages (Kawa, ABCL, and many others -- I wrote one myself called Skij). It's not clear to me why Clojure took off when those others didn't. But if reinventing Lisp is what it takes for Lisp to get traction, I'm for it despite my CL roots.
tresta 15y ago
emacs is written in lisp (and some c for the interpreter), and it must be considered more than a novelty. And autocad uses its own version of lisp (autolisp) as a scripting language. Edit: There are also the Lisp Machines from the 80's (a bit old, yes, I know) [1]. And the Jak and Daxter series of games[2] [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machines [2] - https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Game_Oriented...
jimminy 15y ago
Viaweb?
ohyes 15y ago
>Has[ve] there been ANY programs written in lisp that has risen to the status of anything more than novelty? Yes.
pg 15y ago
Has there been ANY programs written in lisp that has risen to the status of anything more than novelty? The program you used to post that question is written in Lisp. HN probably counts as more than a novelty by this point.
- thiefmaster 15y ago
  Surely most of the software running this site is simply HTML with some basic data movement and storage going on in the backend. I'm not sure this really even qualifies as 'software' ;) It could have been written in php/asp/python/perl etc and would have functioned exactly the same, be about the same lines of code, as maintainable, as prone to bugs and so on. In fact, I seem to remember Reddit rewrote from lisp to python in a weekend?...
  - pg 15y ago
    If you haven't looked the source, and therefore don't know what it does or how long it is, how can you know whether it would be the same length translated into other languages?
    - o1iver 15y ago
      He can't, so he is just making an assumption (whether from experience or not, who knows). But I would be interested in some information about the HN codebase... Is it shorter? Less error-prone? Simpler?
      - noblethrasher 15y ago
        https://github.com/nex3/arc/blob/master/news.arc https://github.com/nex3/arc/blob/master/news.arc
    - thiefmaster 15y ago
      Lines of code is probably the wrong term for me to use. Since it's bogus. (Depends on how much the language provides, libraries, etc and doesn't necessarily capture program complexity). A more accurate term would be "Required programming effort". Would you agree that it would take a similar amount of effort for a proficient PHP programmer to write HN, as a proficient Lisp programmer etc? FWIW, I have just looked at the source and IMHO I'd expect it to be extremely similar in PHP/other languages.
spacemanaki 15y ago
"If I'm working on any sort of problem needing a programming solution, and someone suggests we use lisp, I buy that person a copy of "The pragmatic Programmer", and tell them to read it closely." Then I'd recommend you go back and read it closely yourself, because there's an entire chapter on domain-specific programming which includes tips on implementing mini-languages to write code close to the problem space, which is a very Lispy suggestion.
mtraven 15y ago
Doesn't ITA count? (Powers Orbitz, acquired by Google for a fairly significant amount of money). Also see here: http://www.franz.com/success/ http://www.franz.com/success/
route66 15y ago
"lie", "things that are irrelevant" ... Opinionated words. I have not read the pragmatic programmer, but I fear that you just gave it a bad rap.

neutronicus 15y ago

I learned Common Lisp to see what all the fuss was about, and I don't regret it. I think most claims in its favor are hyperbole, but the Lisp implementations are very nice pieces of technology, providing features comparable to CPython with approximately the performance of Java. I almost always find myself missing some feature of the Common Lisp environment when working on more lucrative endeavors.

bendmorris 15y ago

Stack Overflow is down for maintenance, so here's a cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:QfU7Ls3W0SIJ:stackoverflow.com/questions/4724/learning-lisp-why+http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4724/learning-lisp-why&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:QfU7Ls3...

ecounysis 15y ago

"Lisp is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience you will have when you finally get it; that experience will make you a better programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never actually use Lisp itself a lot." - Eric S. Raymond, "How to Become a Hacker" http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html