4 ms·

The opposite question is also important. Should the mobile network my phone is on get a share of all transactions made from my phone? Should my home ISP get a s

The opposite question is also important. Should the mobile network my phone is on get a share of all transactions made from my phone? Should my home ISP get a share from purchases made on my home computer? Or the hardware vendor? Or the OS vendor? The reason Apple gets to ask for a cut of all transactions made on my phone is because they are in a position to control those transactions, not because it's right for them to ask for that cut. They can remove any app that tries to bypass their cut, as was recently ruled in their case against Epic Games. Like wise Doordash has control, if you want them to pay a driver to carry your food from the restaurant to your home, then they get a cut. The difference between Doordash and Apple is that Apple forbade anyone with an app in the app store from even telling people that they could pay for a purchase outside the app. For a time the Kindle app would send you to a checkout page in Safari, but Apple forced them to remove that. The comparison would be that any restaurant that worked with Doordash being forced to remove mention that they do pickup orders, if you don't want dine in then you must order with Doordash, even if that technically isnt't true. To me there is no magic percent where these behaviors should or should not be allowed or regulated. To me it's more about the pattern of 'soft' extortion. "You get value from our platform so we deserve a cut of what you make", sounds a bit too much like "You sure do have a nice app there with some dedicated users, it sure would be bad if something happened to it..." I don't know that I would pay for and read a tenth as many books as I do if I didn't always have the Kindle app in my pocket. On the other hand if Apple ever removed the Kindle app I'd have a strong reason to switch to Android. Both gain value from the other. Apple insentience to always get the better of that trade seems counter productive.

dkonofalski 5y ago
You started off well but then veered off into the wrong lane. The difference between DoorDash and Apple is that Apple built, runs, and owns the platform that's providing the value for the service whereas DoorDash only owns the service. Your example would only be analagous if DoorDash told restaurant owners that they couldn't advertise Uber Eats or Postmates services on their restaurant listings within the DoorDash app. Apple didn't forbid people from telling people they could pay for a purchase outside the app. They just didn't let people do that from within the app itself.
- VenTatsu 5y ago
  One of the rules in Apples App Store policy is that developers are not allowed to communicate with customers out side the app, even if they asked for permission in the app. (They were enjoined against doing this in the recent Epic Games v. Apple ruling [1]) Apple also forbit apps from directly telling people about other purchasing options in the app. If a customer did download an app, and set up an account, and that app's creator wanted to say hey you have other options to pay us how would they do that? Yes they could do a generic advertising campaign and reach mostly non-customers, but they could not by Apple's rules directedly talk to their own customer base. To use the Doordash analogy this is like saying you can't include a menu with direct ordering phone number with a delivery. I do think this qualifies as "forbid people from telling people they could pay for a purchase outside the app." The difference is between Apples actual rules and the hypothetical Doordash behaving badly is more about degrees of control and likely hood of working that actual intent. Your own examples don't fit to Apple's behavior any better, DoorDash saying you can't advertise Uber Eats on your menu is nothing like Apple saying Amazon can't advertise Amazon in Amazons own Amazon app. Your using the example of a competitor advertising in the competitions app, that is an apples to oranges comparison, Apple owns the platform, you could argue that Apple can say that Amazon can't advertise their Android tablets in the Kindle app, maybe that would be like your example, but that was never what the issue was. [1] https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21060628/epic-apple-injunction.pdf https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21060628/epic-apple-i... Section 1. (ii)
  - dkonofalski 5y ago
    No, it's not. Amazon's App Store application doesn't exist without the Apple ecosystem and Apple's customers. Amazon is allowed to advertise anything they want outside of the Apple App Store, including on Android and any other platforms not run by Apple. The rule is only about advertising for other services within the platform that Apple runs. They absolutely can communicate with their customers but that can't advertise to Apple's customers to promote circumventing the App Store's systems. My example isn't at all like what you're describing unless Amazon's app is outside of the Apple ecosystem. There is literally no business that allows companies using their property to advertise their competitors. Your example about a direct ordering phone number is not analogous at all. A better example would be a restaurant allowing DoorDash to post advertisements but specifying that they can only advertise for their own services, not promote other companies who pay DoorDash more for priority. Your whole argument is based on an incorrect understanding of the agreements made to use the App Store and an inaccurate understanding of the limits imposed by apps. I am not using the example of a competitor advertising in the competitions app. I'm using the example of someone advertising on a business's property or platform to advertise a different platform.

dkonofalski 5y ago

You started off well but then veered off into the wrong lane. The difference between DoorDash and Apple is that Apple built, runs, and owns the platform that's providing the value for the service whereas DoorDash only owns the service. Your example would only be analagous if DoorDash told restaurant owners that they couldn't advertise Uber Eats or Postmates services on their restaurant listings within the DoorDash app. Apple didn't forbid people from telling people they could pay for a purchase outside the app. They just didn't let people do that from within the app itself.

VenTatsu 5y ago
One of the rules in Apples App Store policy is that developers are not allowed to communicate with customers out side the app, even if they asked for permission in the app. (They were enjoined against doing this in the recent Epic Games v. Apple ruling [1]) Apple also forbit apps from directly telling people about other purchasing options in the app. If a customer did download an app, and set up an account, and that app's creator wanted to say hey you have other options to pay us how would they do that? Yes they could do a generic advertising campaign and reach mostly non-customers, but they could not by Apple's rules directedly talk to their own customer base. To use the Doordash analogy this is like saying you can't include a menu with direct ordering phone number with a delivery. I do think this qualifies as "forbid people from telling people they could pay for a purchase outside the app." The difference is between Apples actual rules and the hypothetical Doordash behaving badly is more about degrees of control and likely hood of working that actual intent. Your own examples don't fit to Apple's behavior any better, DoorDash saying you can't advertise Uber Eats on your menu is nothing like Apple saying Amazon can't advertise Amazon in Amazons own Amazon app. Your using the example of a competitor advertising in the competitions app, that is an apples to oranges comparison, Apple owns the platform, you could argue that Apple can say that Amazon can't advertise their Android tablets in the Kindle app, maybe that would be like your example, but that was never what the issue was. [1] https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21060628/epic-apple-injunction.pdf https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21060628/epic-apple-i... Section 1. (ii)
- dkonofalski 5y ago
  No, it's not. Amazon's App Store application doesn't exist without the Apple ecosystem and Apple's customers. Amazon is allowed to advertise anything they want outside of the Apple App Store, including on Android and any other platforms not run by Apple. The rule is only about advertising for other services within the platform that Apple runs. They absolutely can communicate with their customers but that can't advertise to Apple's customers to promote circumventing the App Store's systems. My example isn't at all like what you're describing unless Amazon's app is outside of the Apple ecosystem. There is literally no business that allows companies using their property to advertise their competitors. Your example about a direct ordering phone number is not analogous at all. A better example would be a restaurant allowing DoorDash to post advertisements but specifying that they can only advertise for their own services, not promote other companies who pay DoorDash more for priority. Your whole argument is based on an incorrect understanding of the agreements made to use the App Store and an inaccurate understanding of the limits imposed by apps. I am not using the example of a competitor advertising in the competitions app. I'm using the example of someone advertising on a business's property or platform to advertise a different platform.