4 ms·

Kinda surprised he didn't mention WSL, on the topic of companies trying to enable transitioning away from Linux onto their own operating systems. On that note,

Kinda surprised he didn't mention WSL, on the topic of companies trying to enable transitioning away from Linux onto their own operating systems. On that note, if the end is indeed nigh, then replicating Linux compatibility across as many other platforms as possible - beefing up the existing support on FreeBSD and NetBSD, reintroducing it for OpenBSD, getting it going on something like Haiku - seems like an important next step. Linux the kernel might have numbered days, but Linux the ABI could still have a future. One thing the video misses re: Linux's prognosis is the breadth of hardware/driver support. Linux is, if not the most comprehensive collection of actively maintained device drivers out there, pretty darn close to it. Other platforms implementing Linux's userspace ABI? Big whoop. It's the kernelspace drivers that will entrench Linux for a long while, and it's those drivers that a Linux replacement will need to provide - whether from scratch or through compatibility with Linux's kernelspace APIs - before Linux's death is even possible, let alone probable. Even Fuchsia is highly unlikely to be the Linux replacement Bryan suspects it to be without substantially expanding its hardware support (which is still AFAICT in its infancy; even Haiku supports more hardware, and that's developed with a budget that might as well be a rounding error compared to what Google's able to throw around).

type0 5y ago
> Kinda surprised he didn't mention WSL - How could you make Linux suck more? - You install it on Windows!
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Actually suck less, it has been my option since VMWare made it possible.
  - nix23 5y ago
    Have to agree, Windows sucks less with Linux on it.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      I know UNIX since my introduction to Xenix in 1993, used several flavours of it for what is now about 30 years, was a Linux Journal subscriber for most of its existence, yet all my laptops with exception of an aging Asus Netbook don't run GNU/Linux bare metal, rather Apple, Microsoft or Google systems, go figure.
      - nix23 5y ago
        No problem you can run Linux on Windows. No need to run it on Apple...and "Google Systems" run on linux. You are perfectly fine buddy, go figure ;) BTW: You forgot your fridge, mine runs Solaris, have to protect that data, but my toaster is a Mainframe (MVS3.8 tk4-) it needs a good job entry system.
    - oneepic 5y ago
      I think the commenter's point is the following hierarchy: Linux > WSL > Windows
    - type0 5y ago
      Windows might suck less with Linux, but Linux sucks more when run on Windows
kazinator 5y ago
> but Linux the ABI could still have a future. This is an important point because it conflicts the doom and gloom claim that something like Fuchsia is just a temporary transition technology that will then dump the compatibility. You can't just dump the compatibility and remain relevant. If Google deploys Fuchsia on mobile devices, and then morphs it into something that isn't Linux compatible, it just won't be relevant; it's basically a step of retreating into a niche. Various pieces of middleware won't work on it; I don't think Google wants that. > It's the kernelspace drivers that will entrench Linux for a long while You might think, but it is 100% clear? Drivers can be ported to a different system. There are out of tree drivers out there that use #ifdefs to be compatible across kernel versions due to upstream changes. Drivers can be separated into the payload parts, and the Linux glue, and then that glue can be retargetted. Nobody wants to do that though if they can just use Linux right? However, the arguments of Linux accumulating code and becoming less and less maintainable could precipitate into situations where alternatives spring up which take what they want or need out of Linux, without all the other crud. > Kinda surprised he didn't mention WSL I was thinking the exact same thing when he brought up Fuchsia, but I think he had a point there. Not a lot of us have heard of Fuchsia. WSL is not a threat to anything because it already runs under Windows. It's not poised to take a huge number of devices famously based on the Linux kernel, and take Linux out of the picture. WSL isn't a transition off Linux and could never be; nobody is looking to transition to Windows via WSL. WSL has little room to break Linux compatibility. Imagine that, say, ten years from now, no Android, Chrome OS or Google TV or whatever device is built on Linux any more. The kernel is Fuchsia or whatever; there is a C library that is the same old Bionic or a derivative. That will be a blow to Linux.
- yellowapple 5y ago
  > Nobody wants to do that though if they can just use Linux right? That's kind of what I'm getting at, yeah. Sure, you could port a bunch of drivers to some new kernel and driver API, but even out-of-tree (let alone in-tree) drivers don't necessarily lend themselves to that, and the comprehensive collection of in-tree drivers makes that a hard sell. > However, the arguments of Linux accumulating code and becoming less and less maintainable could precipitate into situations where alternatives spring up which take what they want or need out of Linux, without all the other crud. Definitely seems like a possibility, though (to my knowledge at least) it doesn't seem like there are any projects going in that direction - I suspect because of the relative instability of the driver API (let alone the absolutely-not-stable-whatsoever ABI) and the more intertwined nature of kernelspace code compared to the userspace ABI/API.

type0 5y ago

> Kinda surprised he didn't mention WSL - How could you make Linux suck more? - You install it on Windows!

pjmlp 5y ago
Actually suck less, it has been my option since VMWare made it possible.
- nix23 5y ago
  Have to agree, Windows sucks less with Linux on it.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    I know UNIX since my introduction to Xenix in 1993, used several flavours of it for what is now about 30 years, was a Linux Journal subscriber for most of its existence, yet all my laptops with exception of an aging Asus Netbook don't run GNU/Linux bare metal, rather Apple, Microsoft or Google systems, go figure.
    - nix23 5y ago
      No problem you can run Linux on Windows. No need to run it on Apple...and "Google Systems" run on linux. You are perfectly fine buddy, go figure ;) BTW: You forgot your fridge, mine runs Solaris, have to protect that data, but my toaster is a Mainframe (MVS3.8 tk4-) it needs a good job entry system.
  - oneepic 5y ago
    I think the commenter's point is the following hierarchy: Linux > WSL > Windows
  - type0 5y ago
    Windows might suck less with Linux, but Linux sucks more when run on Windows

kazinator 5y ago

> but Linux the ABI could still have a future. This is an important point because it conflicts the doom and gloom claim that something like Fuchsia is just a temporary transition technology that will then dump the compatibility. You can't just dump the compatibility and remain relevant. If Google deploys Fuchsia on mobile devices, and then morphs it into something that isn't Linux compatible, it just won't be relevant; it's basically a step of retreating into a niche. Various pieces of middleware won't work on it; I don't think Google wants that. > It's the kernelspace drivers that will entrench Linux for a long while You might think, but it is 100% clear? Drivers can be ported to a different system. There are out of tree drivers out there that use #ifdefs to be compatible across kernel versions due to upstream changes. Drivers can be separated into the payload parts, and the Linux glue, and then that glue can be retargetted. Nobody wants to do that though if they can just use Linux right? However, the arguments of Linux accumulating code and becoming less and less maintainable could precipitate into situations where alternatives spring up which take what they want or need out of Linux, without all the other crud. > Kinda surprised he didn't mention WSL I was thinking the exact same thing when he brought up Fuchsia, but I think he had a point there. Not a lot of us have heard of Fuchsia. WSL is not a threat to anything because it already runs under Windows. It's not poised to take a huge number of devices famously based on the Linux kernel, and take Linux out of the picture. WSL isn't a transition off Linux and could never be; nobody is looking to transition to Windows via WSL. WSL has little room to break Linux compatibility. Imagine that, say, ten years from now, no Android, Chrome OS or Google TV or whatever device is built on Linux any more. The kernel is Fuchsia or whatever; there is a C library that is the same old Bionic or a derivative. That will be a blow to Linux.

yellowapple 5y ago
> Nobody wants to do that though if they can just use Linux right? That's kind of what I'm getting at, yeah. Sure, you could port a bunch of drivers to some new kernel and driver API, but even out-of-tree (let alone in-tree) drivers don't necessarily lend themselves to that, and the comprehensive collection of in-tree drivers makes that a hard sell. > However, the arguments of Linux accumulating code and becoming less and less maintainable could precipitate into situations where alternatives spring up which take what they want or need out of Linux, without all the other crud. Definitely seems like a possibility, though (to my knowledge at least) it doesn't seem like there are any projects going in that direction - I suspect because of the relative instability of the driver API (let alone the absolutely-not-stable-whatsoever ABI) and the more intertwined nature of kernelspace code compared to the userspace ABI/API.