4 ms·

I don't understand why we're talking about spending trillions so flippantly and none of it has anything to do with health care. That's the biggest issue in the

I don't understand why we're talking about spending trillions so flippantly and none of it has anything to do with health care. That's the biggest issue in the US today. I've never even heard of a trillion dollar spending bill until the pandemic, now it seems almost commonplace. If you want to spend trillions, give us real change.

BossingAround 5y ago
I'd say healthcare is a huge issue in the US. That said, there won't be any need for healthcare if we don't do anything about climate change...
- mrfusion 5y ago
  What could happen in the next 20 years that makes us not need healthcare? I haven’t heard of anything that extreme.
  - BossingAround 5y ago
    The fact that you're asking "what could happen within the next 20 years" when it comes to the life on our planet screams the doom of the human race to me. Jesus...
    - thehappypm 5y ago
      "Life on our planet"? You think that climate change is going to end life on Earth? That's crazy. Climate change is a threat to modern human civilization. Not life as a whole.
- jjcon 5y ago
  Not sure what that is supposed to mean? Well need healthcare regardless of climate change effects
- thehappypm 5y ago
  I think people dying of treatable diseases is a much more real issue to most Americans than climate change.
  - thomaslangston 5y ago
    That's a failure of education and politics, not an indicator of what needs additional money.
    - thehappypm 5y ago
      How so? “Dad is dying because we can’t afford his cancer treatment” vs “in 50 years, there will be geopolitical unrest”
throwaway894345 5y ago
Healthcare in the US lags behind many first world countries, so there's room for improvement and if we can have our cake (climate) and eat it too (healthcare), I'm all for it. But the climate scientists are warning us that if we don't take action on the climate today, we're looking at civilization-collapse-level consequences in the near future. Healthcare reform pales in comparison. So this is precisely the place to spend trillions, to the extent we have to choose. The more concerning problem is that the climate change initiatives are spending trillions on what amounts to a drop in the bucket. If we could muster the political will to pass carbon pricing legislation, we could actually generate revenue and carbon pricing is a far more effective way to combat climate change, but it's a bridge too far for fossil fuel companies (and their politicians) so we won't get that.
dragontamer 5y ago
That's because there's no debate about it. If everyone agrees on a health-care subject, then it just happens... and it happens almost immediately. We've literally purchased so much vaccine that its free. We've pumped so much money into COVID19 that its ridiculous. Not only have we purchased free vaccines for everyone, we've also put in millions of orders of $2100 per dose monoclonal antibody treatments. That's billions-of-dollars of treatment. It happened with a snap of the finger. We noticed we were running low on monoclonal antibodies (and they are a relatively safe and effective treatment for those who are inflicted with COVID19). Since we're running low on supply, Biden allocated money for it, and then billions poured in. A big purchase agreement was made, we'll have millions of doses ready in a month. This process happened months ago as well (which is why we have monoclonal antibodies even with an unprecedented surge in COVID19 cases occurring across the USA). It probably will happen again as we prepare for the winter surge. Those are also free, thanks to all the money the government thrown at it. ----------- The fact of the matter is: free vaccines / free monoclonal antibodies / etc. etc. is not even a debate. Literally everyone agrees on it. So it happens, it happens so quickly no one even notices. Only when a "debate" comes up will you ever hear about it in the news. You'll also see it come up when poor planning causes a problem. We famously had the PPE shortage and needle shortage last year. (Can't inject vaccines unless you make more needles), but those were resolved rather quickly and seem to be forgotten about now. Money can't solve poor planning: people need to buy things months in advance so that they're ready in time for the emergency.
fweespeech 5y ago
> I don't understand why we're talking about spending trillions so flippantly and none of it has anything to do with health care. Private health insurance has its bribes paid up. The corporations this bill has a negative impact on are pinning their hopes on Joe Manchin because they can't afford to bribe the entire Democratic party.
dillondoyle 5y ago
It has a TON to do with healthcare. It would expand hearing and vision coverage for medicare, likely dental too but right now not in effect for years (cause teeth are expensive which is it's own problem). It would allow govt to negotiate drug prices which should ideally save money e.g. less tax increases needed for pay fors. Perhaps amongst some other things like more obamacare subsidies. But i'm sadly not super optimistic. I think biden's initial plan was huge knowing it would get negotiated down. But now we're being held hostage and it will probably get small.... I would also argue pre-k, food, expanding child tax credit are key to health too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2021/08/30/budget-reconciliation-bills-healthcare-provisions-are-disastrous/?sh=7a85cb3c369d https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2021/08/30/budget-re...
long_time_gone 5y ago
==I don't understand why we're talking about spending trillions so flippantly and none of it has anything to do with health care. == This is not true. Plenty of the $3.5 trillion is aimed at healthcare. Everything is still up for negotiation, but there are lots of provisions focused on health. - Expanded Medicare to include dental, vision, and hearing is in there [1]. - Lowering Medicare age to 60 [2]. - National paid leave [3]. - Negotiated drug prices [4]. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/08/09/1026104398/democrats-hope-to-beef-up-medicare-with-dental-vision-and-hearing-benefits#:~:text=That%20is%20not%20saying%20it,to%20enactment%20since%20Medicare's%20inception https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/08/09/1026104.... [2] https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/03/politics/lower-medicare-eligibility-age-democratic-legislation/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/03/politics/lower-medicare-eligi... [3] https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/hblog20210617.789833/full/ https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/hblog20210617.78983... [4] https://www.rollcall.com/2021/08/12/biden-sets-drug-pricing-goals-as-democrats-go-to-work-on-reconciliation-vehicle-to-deliver/ https://www.rollcall.com/2021/08/12/biden-sets-drug-pricing-...
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  Notably, one of the big benefits from the recent move away from coal is the cleaner air and the healthier lungs that it creates (this is also true of gas, though not as much as coal). So even the energy bits are about health too. > Economists believe that in 2030, the Clean Power Plan could save the country $20 billion in climate-related costs and deliver $14 billion to $34 billion in health benefits. The shift to energy efficiency and cleaner power will also save the average American family $85 on its electricity bills in 2030. Similar effects are found for various similar things, like the Clean Air Act, and California's auto emission legistlation. https://www.epa.gov/clean-air-act-overview/progress-cleaning-air-and-improving-peoples-health#cost https://www.epa.gov/clean-air-act-overview/progress-cleaning...
- thehappypm 5y ago
  You’re right, it does have health pieces. It’s a band aid. We need M4A!
  - 5y ago
genericuser314 5y ago
My partner is a civil engineer so I go to a lot of ASCE happy hours and it is common wisdom among civil engineers that for every $100 you spend on infrastructure, you get like $113 to $117 in economic activity. I also believe that almost all federal infrastructure spending has Buy American clauses. The linked Reason article makes some libertarian arguments against Buy American clauses that if you know anything about libertarianism you can anticipate, but I am not a libertarian and personally think that more things should have Buy American clauses. https://www.epi.org/publication/the-potential-macroeconomic-benefits-from-increasing-infrastructure-investment/ https://www.epi.org/publication/the-potential-macroeconomic-... https://reason.org/transportation-news/analysis-of-the-bipartisan-infrastructure-bill-how-buy-america-undermines-transit-and-more/ https://reason.org/transportation-news/analysis-of-the-bipar...
- Larrikin 5y ago
  Riding on a subway car in Tokyo and then riding on one in New York makes me wish there were more exceptions to buy American.
pyrrhotech 5y ago
Um, no, climate change is by far the greatest existential threat to human civilization. Civilization thrived for thousands of years without healthcare of any kind, and although inefficient and too expensive today, healthcare is a near non-issue when compared to the climate crisis. If we do nothing, in a mere couple of centuries Earth will no longer have a breathable atmosphere above 6C warming.
knubie 5y ago
Spending more money isn't going to fix U.S. healthcare. The federal government already spends quite a bit on healthcare per capita compared to most countries. The U.S. has a healthcare cost problem, which is a lot trickier to fix, and is the results of a lot of obscure policies that have built up and calcified over decades.
clairity 5y ago
we don't need more money in healthcare, we need less rent-seeking, bloat and graft. we spend more than any other country on healthcare for very marginal benefit. and climate change is too amorphous of a concept to muster enthusiastic support from a broad base of americans. the framing needs to be air and water pollution, the reduction of which (as others have pointed out) has significant health benefits across the board, rather than amorphous arguments about lower the temperature and saving some animal/plant species and habitats (which we should certainly try to save too, but we save them through framing for broad support).
GaryTang 5y ago
I don’t understand why people keep suggesting we throw more money at a broken healthcare system when we already spend more on healthcare than any other country. I agree about spending though, that $ should be allocated towards long-term economic growth(Think quantum computing, fusion energy, etc) - not these half ass short-term measures.

BossingAround 5y ago

I'd say healthcare is a huge issue in the US. That said, there won't be any need for healthcare if we don't do anything about climate change...

mrfusion 5y ago
What could happen in the next 20 years that makes us not need healthcare? I haven’t heard of anything that extreme.
- BossingAround 5y ago
  The fact that you're asking "what could happen within the next 20 years" when it comes to the life on our planet screams the doom of the human race to me. Jesus...
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    "Life on our planet"? You think that climate change is going to end life on Earth? That's crazy. Climate change is a threat to modern human civilization. Not life as a whole.
jjcon 5y ago
Not sure what that is supposed to mean? Well need healthcare regardless of climate change effects
thehappypm 5y ago
I think people dying of treatable diseases is a much more real issue to most Americans than climate change.
- thomaslangston 5y ago
  That's a failure of education and politics, not an indicator of what needs additional money.
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    How so? “Dad is dying because we can’t afford his cancer treatment” vs “in 50 years, there will be geopolitical unrest”

throwaway894345 5y ago

Healthcare in the US lags behind many first world countries, so there's room for improvement and if we can have our cake (climate) and eat it too (healthcare), I'm all for it. But the climate scientists are warning us that if we don't take action on the climate today, we're looking at civilization-collapse-level consequences in the near future. Healthcare reform pales in comparison. So this is precisely the place to spend trillions, to the extent we have to choose. The more concerning problem is that the climate change initiatives are spending trillions on what amounts to a drop in the bucket. If we could muster the political will to pass carbon pricing legislation, we could actually generate revenue and carbon pricing is a far more effective way to combat climate change, but it's a bridge too far for fossil fuel companies (and their politicians) so we won't get that.

dragontamer 5y ago

That's because there's no debate about it. If everyone agrees on a health-care subject, then it just happens... and it happens almost immediately. We've literally purchased so much vaccine that its free. We've pumped so much money into COVID19 that its ridiculous. Not only have we purchased free vaccines for everyone, we've also put in millions of orders of $2100 per dose monoclonal antibody treatments. That's billions-of-dollars of treatment. It happened with a snap of the finger. We noticed we were running low on monoclonal antibodies (and they are a relatively safe and effective treatment for those who are inflicted with COVID19). Since we're running low on supply, Biden allocated money for it, and then billions poured in. A big purchase agreement was made, we'll have millions of doses ready in a month. This process happened months ago as well (which is why we have monoclonal antibodies even with an unprecedented surge in COVID19 cases occurring across the USA). It probably will happen again as we prepare for the winter surge. Those are also free, thanks to all the money the government thrown at it. ----------- The fact of the matter is: free vaccines / free monoclonal antibodies / etc. etc. is not even a debate. Literally everyone agrees on it. So it happens, it happens so quickly no one even notices. Only when a "debate" comes up will you ever hear about it in the news. You'll also see it come up when poor planning causes a problem. We famously had the PPE shortage and needle shortage last year. (Can't inject vaccines unless you make more needles), but those were resolved rather quickly and seem to be forgotten about now. Money can't solve poor planning: people need to buy things months in advance so that they're ready in time for the emergency.

fweespeech 5y ago

> I don't understand why we're talking about spending trillions so flippantly and none of it has anything to do with health care. Private health insurance has its bribes paid up. The corporations this bill has a negative impact on are pinning their hopes on Joe Manchin because they can't afford to bribe the entire Democratic party.

dillondoyle 5y ago

It has a TON to do with healthcare. It would expand hearing and vision coverage for medicare, likely dental too but right now not in effect for years (cause teeth are expensive which is it's own problem). It would allow govt to negotiate drug prices which should ideally save money e.g. less tax increases needed for pay fors. Perhaps amongst some other things like more obamacare subsidies. But i'm sadly not super optimistic. I think biden's initial plan was huge knowing it would get negotiated down. But now we're being held hostage and it will probably get small.... I would also argue pre-k, food, expanding child tax credit are key to health too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2021/08/30/budget-reconciliation-bills-healthcare-provisions-are-disastrous/?sh=7a85cb3c369d https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2021/08/30/budget-re...

long_time_gone 5y ago

==I don't understand why we're talking about spending trillions so flippantly and none of it has anything to do with health care. == This is not true. Plenty of the $3.5 trillion is aimed at healthcare. Everything is still up for negotiation, but there are lots of provisions focused on health. - Expanded Medicare to include dental, vision, and hearing is in there [1]. - Lowering Medicare age to 60 [2]. - National paid leave [3]. - Negotiated drug prices [4]. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/08/09/1026104398/democrats-hope-to-beef-up-medicare-with-dental-vision-and-hearing-benefits#:~:text=That%20is%20not%20saying%20it,to%20enactment%20since%20Medicare's%20inception https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/08/09/1026104.... [2] https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/03/politics/lower-medicare-eligibility-age-democratic-legislation/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/03/politics/lower-medicare-eligi... [3] https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/hblog20210617.789833/full/ https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/hblog20210617.78983... [4] https://www.rollcall.com/2021/08/12/biden-sets-drug-pricing-goals-as-democrats-go-to-work-on-reconciliation-vehicle-to-deliver/ https://www.rollcall.com/2021/08/12/biden-sets-drug-pricing-...

ZeroGravitas 5y ago
Notably, one of the big benefits from the recent move away from coal is the cleaner air and the healthier lungs that it creates (this is also true of gas, though not as much as coal). So even the energy bits are about health too. > Economists believe that in 2030, the Clean Power Plan could save the country $20 billion in climate-related costs and deliver $14 billion to $34 billion in health benefits. The shift to energy efficiency and cleaner power will also save the average American family $85 on its electricity bills in 2030. Similar effects are found for various similar things, like the Clean Air Act, and California's auto emission legistlation. https://www.epa.gov/clean-air-act-overview/progress-cleaning-air-and-improving-peoples-health#cost https://www.epa.gov/clean-air-act-overview/progress-cleaning...
thehappypm 5y ago
You’re right, it does have health pieces. It’s a band aid. We need M4A!
- 5y ago

genericuser314 5y ago

My partner is a civil engineer so I go to a lot of ASCE happy hours and it is common wisdom among civil engineers that for every $100 you spend on infrastructure, you get like $113 to $117 in economic activity. I also believe that almost all federal infrastructure spending has Buy American clauses. The linked Reason article makes some libertarian arguments against Buy American clauses that if you know anything about libertarianism you can anticipate, but I am not a libertarian and personally think that more things should have Buy American clauses. https://www.epi.org/publication/the-potential-macroeconomic-benefits-from-increasing-infrastructure-investment/ https://www.epi.org/publication/the-potential-macroeconomic-... https://reason.org/transportation-news/analysis-of-the-bipartisan-infrastructure-bill-how-buy-america-undermines-transit-and-more/ https://reason.org/transportation-news/analysis-of-the-bipar...

Larrikin 5y ago
Riding on a subway car in Tokyo and then riding on one in New York makes me wish there were more exceptions to buy American.

pyrrhotech 5y ago

Um, no, climate change is by far the greatest existential threat to human civilization. Civilization thrived for thousands of years without healthcare of any kind, and although inefficient and too expensive today, healthcare is a near non-issue when compared to the climate crisis. If we do nothing, in a mere couple of centuries Earth will no longer have a breathable atmosphere above 6C warming.

knubie 5y ago

Spending more money isn't going to fix U.S. healthcare. The federal government already spends quite a bit on healthcare per capita compared to most countries. The U.S. has a healthcare cost problem, which is a lot trickier to fix, and is the results of a lot of obscure policies that have built up and calcified over decades.

clairity 5y ago

we don't need more money in healthcare, we need less rent-seeking, bloat and graft. we spend more than any other country on healthcare for very marginal benefit. and climate change is too amorphous of a concept to muster enthusiastic support from a broad base of americans. the framing needs to be air and water pollution, the reduction of which (as others have pointed out) has significant health benefits across the board, rather than amorphous arguments about lower the temperature and saving some animal/plant species and habitats (which we should certainly try to save too, but we save them through framing for broad support).

GaryTang 5y ago

I don’t understand why people keep suggesting we throw more money at a broken healthcare system when we already spend more on healthcare than any other country. I agree about spending though, that $ should be allocated towards long-term economic growth(Think quantum computing, fusion energy, etc) - not these half ass short-term measures.