4 ms·

As a non-US person, could someone explain a legal construct of "paying $XXX to resolve criminal charges"? Doesn't "criminal" mean there must be some real punish

As a non-US person, could someone explain a legal construct of "paying $XXX to resolve criminal charges"? Doesn't "criminal" mean there must be some real punishment?

parhamn 5y ago
Criminal charges can end in fines and no jail time. Prosecutors can negotiate plea deals (including fines) to avoid going to court. I don't know enough to comment on if this is something that happens often (it certainly doesn't feel appropriate) in cases like this.
Paradox0 5y ago
Paying a fine isn't a real punishment?
- charonn0 5y ago
  It's not a fine. That's the problem.
  - Paradox0 5y ago
    Sure, it's a "financial penalty", technically. Plea deals are common in many jurisdictions, and the settlement imposes additional penalties. They're being punished.
    - tehwebguy 5y ago
      You are right that a fine is a real penalty but that’s not the real problem. The problem is that someone who committed the same crime but has less money wouldn’t qualify for this option.
      - Paradox0 5y ago
        Is that true? I'm not a lawyer, but I know that in certain criminal plea agreements, such as in antitrust cases, the financial penalty can be paid over installments, the size of which is tied to the company's financial performance. See e.g. > If the parties agree that the recommended fine needs to be paid in installments because of the defendant's inability to pay the entire amount immediately, the plea agreement will include the installment schedule and any interest terms.(58) The payment of a special assessment(59) and any recommendation on a term of probation(60) or expedited sentencing(61) for corporations, or requests by individual defendants to be placed in a specific correctional facility,(62) will also be addressed in the plea agreement. https://www.justice.gov/atr/speech/us-model-negotiated-plea-agreements-good-deal-benefits-all https://www.justice.gov/atr/speech/us-model-negotiated-plea-... And to get back to the original comment I replied to, this critique seems like it would apply to any financial punishment, not something that came down to a technical distinction between "fine" and "financial penalty".
        noitpmeder 5y ago
        Someone with no/low income will take eons to repay $1.685.000, even if made in installments. I doubt it would even be a serious option unless you were wealthy.
monetus 5y ago
Eric holder, the former attorney general, wrote a memo outlining the concepts around the time of the 2008 financial crisis iirc. The idea behind a deferred prosecution agreement is that extracting money and good behavior out of powerful/wealthy defendants is the best possible option when compared to the "collateral consequences" of fully prosecuting them.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  A great example of class-justice by design.
- noitpmeder 5y ago
  For reference: June 16th, 1999 - https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/criminal-fraud/legacy/2010/04/11/charging-corps.PDF https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/criminal-fraud/l...
  - ComodoHacker 5y ago
    Is this what GP is talking about? It's about charging corporations.
    - monetus 5y ago
      Unfortunately it is - the collateral consequences discussed is oriented towards companies labeled too big to fail, but is used to make it easier on prosecuters to attain a form of conviction on less economically impactful prosecutions as well.
- quantified 5y ago
  Right. Let’s see how bad the “collateral consequences” actually are. Though, the result of inept or malfeasant prosecution could be the equivalent of formal immunity thereafter. I’d still like to take my chances.
tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
The German legal system knows a similar concept in § 153a StPO. Basically, if a crime isn't considered particularly severe, and both the prosecutor, the accused, and in some cases the judge agree, the criminal charges are dropped in exchange for "stipulations" (typically restitution, paying a certain amount of money to the state or a nonprofit, working community service, anger management courses, ...) - which means you're never found guilty, making it a great deal in most cases. The idea is that less severe crimes can be handled without the full overhead and without excessive punishment. In practice, this can be 'a bit' controversial, e.g. when Bernie Ecclestone resolved his corruption charges this way by paying 100 million EUR. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Ecclestone#Bribery_accusation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Ecclestone#Bribery_accu...

As a non-US person, could someone explain a legal construct of "paying $XXX to resolve criminal charges"? Doesn't "criminal" mean there must be some real punishment?

parhamn 5y ago

Criminal charges can end in fines and no jail time. Prosecutors can negotiate plea deals (including fines) to avoid going to court. I don't know enough to comment on if this is something that happens often (it certainly doesn't feel appropriate) in cases like this.

Paradox0 5y ago

Paying a fine isn't a real punishment?

charonn0 5y ago
It's not a fine. That's the problem.
- Paradox0 5y ago
  Sure, it's a "financial penalty", technically. Plea deals are common in many jurisdictions, and the settlement imposes additional penalties. They're being punished.
  - tehwebguy 5y ago
    You are right that a fine is a real penalty but that’s not the real problem. The problem is that someone who committed the same crime but has less money wouldn’t qualify for this option.
    - Paradox0 5y ago
      Is that true? I'm not a lawyer, but I know that in certain criminal plea agreements, such as in antitrust cases, the financial penalty can be paid over installments, the size of which is tied to the company's financial performance. See e.g. > If the parties agree that the recommended fine needs to be paid in installments because of the defendant's inability to pay the entire amount immediately, the plea agreement will include the installment schedule and any interest terms.(58) The payment of a special assessment(59) and any recommendation on a term of probation(60) or expedited sentencing(61) for corporations, or requests by individual defendants to be placed in a specific correctional facility,(62) will also be addressed in the plea agreement. https://www.justice.gov/atr/speech/us-model-negotiated-plea-agreements-good-deal-benefits-all https://www.justice.gov/atr/speech/us-model-negotiated-plea-... And to get back to the original comment I replied to, this critique seems like it would apply to any financial punishment, not something that came down to a technical distinction between "fine" and "financial penalty".
      - noitpmeder 5y ago
        Someone with no/low income will take eons to repay $1.685.000, even if made in installments. I doubt it would even be a serious option unless you were wealthy.

monetus 5y ago

Eric holder, the former attorney general, wrote a memo outlining the concepts around the time of the 2008 financial crisis iirc. The idea behind a deferred prosecution agreement is that extracting money and good behavior out of powerful/wealthy defendants is the best possible option when compared to the "collateral consequences" of fully prosecuting them.

jacquesm 5y ago
A great example of class-justice by design.
noitpmeder 5y ago
For reference: June 16th, 1999 - https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/criminal-fraud/legacy/2010/04/11/charging-corps.PDF https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/criminal-fraud/l...
- ComodoHacker 5y ago
  Is this what GP is talking about? It's about charging corporations.
  - monetus 5y ago
    Unfortunately it is - the collateral consequences discussed is oriented towards companies labeled too big to fail, but is used to make it easier on prosecuters to attain a form of conviction on less economically impactful prosecutions as well.
quantified 5y ago
Right. Let’s see how bad the “collateral consequences” actually are. Though, the result of inept or malfeasant prosecution could be the equivalent of formal immunity thereafter. I’d still like to take my chances.

tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago

The German legal system knows a similar concept in § 153a StPO. Basically, if a crime isn't considered particularly severe, and both the prosecutor, the accused, and in some cases the judge agree, the criminal charges are dropped in exchange for "stipulations" (typically restitution, paying a certain amount of money to the state or a nonprofit, working community service, anger management courses, ...) - which means you're never found guilty, making it a great deal in most cases. The idea is that less severe crimes can be handled without the full overhead and without excessive punishment. In practice, this can be 'a bit' controversial, e.g. when Bernie Ecclestone resolved his corruption charges this way by paying 100 million EUR. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Ecclestone#Bribery_accusation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Ecclestone#Bribery_accu...