3 ms·

It's disappointing to see this project, like many other decentralized web projects, has tunnel vision with respect to "cool technologies". The real distributed

It's disappointing to see this project, like many other decentralized web projects, has tunnel vision with respect to "cool technologies". The real distributed web is not non-web protocols, blockchains, or the like. The real distributed web is THE WEB HTTP servers and every single individual running their own web server to host their content (and then syndicate on whatever walled gardens are most profitable after). Connections are fast enough. Computers are fast enough. Self hosting is entirely viable and it cuts the gordian knot that is the content moderation problem. If it's a static HTTP site then there are almost no attack surfaces; it's magnitudes safer than running JS from an arbitrary site in your browser. These non-web protocols do not dencentralize. Lets start with IPFS. It's a great idea but unfortunately, like other security/anonymization layers, it relies mostly on centralizing gateways to actually let people access content. Additionally it is design to disassociate people from their files. Not a great start. WebRTC is just the sickness of modern browser and in-browser "app" architectures causing them to re-implement what already exists in the host OS. But this time in the browser, the most insecure piece of third party code running software there is. And blockchains like etherium aren't even worth talking about until they actually do switch over to proof of stake like they've been talking about for the last decade and never doing. And even then it directly involves monetary transactions which is sure to make thing suck for everyone. No, the decentralized web is the decentalized web. And it's easy to be a part of it.

imglorp 5y ago
> IPFS [...] relies mostly on centralizing gateways to actually let people access content No, IPFS does not need gateways: they are conveniences for people that don't have ipfs:// support in their browser or run a local daemon. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ipfs-companion/nibjojkomfdiaoajekhjakgkdhaomnch https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ipfs-companion/nib... https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ipfs-companion https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ipfs-companio... https://brave.com/ipfs-support https://brave.com/ipfs-support
- superkuh 5y ago
  That's exactly what I said. I don't appreciate you twisting my words to make a point. No one has IPFS support. I have some IRC friends that are big in to it and they always link the gateways because no one can access their content otherwise.
  - imglorp 5y ago
    Yeah, but not no one. It's native in Brave and Opera Touch now. At some point those ^ extensions should be folded into mainstream browsers unless Big Content pushes against it.
yann2 5y ago
Its not easy at all. Try it out with your family on your LAN. People are used to so much convenience, its easy to brush under the carpet, just how much work is happening behind the scenes. Just coming up with a basic list of 3 mordern conveniences you want to support for your family will be non trivial. In fact, just try supporting one. (Worked as an RA in a distributed systems lab back in the day, and just getting everyone who proposed the algos and systems to use them was a nightmare)
- superkuh 5y ago
  Is my family on my LAN the target for decentralized web projects? I figured it was more technical people that would know how to forward a port. I've personally been running a webserver from inside the LAN at home for 20 years now. Lets not kid ourselves. The vast majority of people don't use the web. They consume it. And they will never care about IPFS or etherium layers. The distributed web is to create a refuge from the types of companies that serve those needs. But adding additional layers of abstraction doesn't help technical users achieve that goal, it's just a fetish. They can easily forward the port and set up a simple static webserver and as a big plus their non-technical friends can actually access the data.
lxpz 5y ago
Thank you for stating this. I absolutely agree with you, and this is what we are trying to do with the Deuxfleurs collective which is also getting funded by the EU to work on our project Garage [0, 1]. We are working on making self-hosting easier, and also more reliable, by exploiting geographical redundancy [2]. We will use the grant money mostly to develop Garage, our self-hosted data server (an object store implementing the S3 protocol, and soon also an email inbox server with IMAP access). We are also working on automating opening ports on your router to get around NAT (with our project DiploNAT [3]), and on facilitating distributed deployments with the Nomad orchestrator. Our vision is to help technical users set up local self-hosting collectives by setting up servers at three or four geographical locations for redundancy, which can then be used by their friends, neighbors, etc. We are of course very keen on deploying federated protocols such as Matrix to link all of these communities together. [0] https://garagehq.deuxfleurs.fr https://garagehq.deuxfleurs.fr [1] https://git.deuxfleurs.fr/Deuxfleurs/infrastructure https://git.deuxfleurs.fr/Deuxfleurs/infrastructure [2] https://git.deuxfleurs.fr/Deuxfleurs/garage/src/branch/main/doc/talks/2021-09-13-ngi-kickoff/talk.pdf https://git.deuxfleurs.fr/Deuxfleurs/garage/src/branch/main/... [3] https://git.deuxfleurs.fr/Deuxfleurs/diplonat https://git.deuxfleurs.fr/Deuxfleurs/diplonat Not linking our main website because it's in French.
- tifadg1 5y ago
  For an outsider, yet one that has a soft spot for decentralization, I can't understand what niche the projects are solving. Technical users can already rent a vps for very cheap and do it there. HA works only as well as it was tailored to - no generic solutions will change that, unless they impose harsh complexity. Who are the potential users?
  - adrn10 5y ago
    (I'm also part of Deuxfleurs) With Garage, we are trying to eschew the need for a VPS, or at least provide on-premise failovers for individuals and tiny organisations. Our argument, as stated by OP, is that domestic connections are now powerful enough to release the load on datacenters. We deem it more ecological and empowering to plug-in an old computer to your home box.
cookiengineer 5y ago
I agree with your arguments completely, and I've come to similar conclusions (except with dat and ipfs) when I decided how to build my peer to peer web browser network. Unfortunately, in the real world peer to peer is a different problem due to carrier-grade NATs everywhere. I have to implement malware-like exfiltration and smuggling techniques in order to build an end to end encrypted network, because pretty much down the infrastructure is unreliable and manipulated by ISPs wherever they can, including unencrypted DNS or even DNS via TLS ports being blocked completely off the internet. [1] Without those protocol in protocol techniques there'll always be a single point of failure, like with all "dApps" that are actually just gatekeepers on a centralized domain as a point of entry for their network. Those usually can be blocked off so easily that it's ridiculous to call them decentralized. Somehow, between the 2000s and now, the internet got so crippled for endusers that it boggles my mind how that happened without resistance. [1] https://github.com/tholian-network https://github.com/tholian-network
MaxBarraclough 5y ago
> No, the decentralized web is the decentalized web. And it's easy to be a part of it. The IndieWeb community deserve a mention here, they're all about exactly this kind of thing: https://indieweb.org/ https://indieweb.org/

imglorp 5y ago

> IPFS [...] relies mostly on centralizing gateways to actually let people access content No, IPFS does not need gateways: they are conveniences for people that don't have ipfs:// support in their browser or run a local daemon. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ipfs-companion/nibjojkomfdiaoajekhjakgkdhaomnch https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ipfs-companion/nib... https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ipfs-companion https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ipfs-companio... https://brave.com/ipfs-support https://brave.com/ipfs-support

superkuh 5y ago
That's exactly what I said. I don't appreciate you twisting my words to make a point. No one has IPFS support. I have some IRC friends that are big in to it and they always link the gateways because no one can access their content otherwise.
- imglorp 5y ago
  Yeah, but not no one. It's native in Brave and Opera Touch now. At some point those ^ extensions should be folded into mainstream browsers unless Big Content pushes against it.

yann2 5y ago

Its not easy at all. Try it out with your family on your LAN. People are used to so much convenience, its easy to brush under the carpet, just how much work is happening behind the scenes. Just coming up with a basic list of 3 mordern conveniences you want to support for your family will be non trivial. In fact, just try supporting one. (Worked as an RA in a distributed systems lab back in the day, and just getting everyone who proposed the algos and systems to use them was a nightmare)

superkuh 5y ago
Is my family on my LAN the target for decentralized web projects? I figured it was more technical people that would know how to forward a port. I've personally been running a webserver from inside the LAN at home for 20 years now. Lets not kid ourselves. The vast majority of people don't use the web. They consume it. And they will never care about IPFS or etherium layers. The distributed web is to create a refuge from the types of companies that serve those needs. But adding additional layers of abstraction doesn't help technical users achieve that goal, it's just a fetish. They can easily forward the port and set up a simple static webserver and as a big plus their non-technical friends can actually access the data.

lxpz 5y ago

Thank you for stating this. I absolutely agree with you, and this is what we are trying to do with the Deuxfleurs collective which is also getting funded by the EU to work on our project Garage [0, 1]. We are working on making self-hosting easier, and also more reliable, by exploiting geographical redundancy [2]. We will use the grant money mostly to develop Garage, our self-hosted data server (an object store implementing the S3 protocol, and soon also an email inbox server with IMAP access). We are also working on automating opening ports on your router to get around NAT (with our project DiploNAT [3]), and on facilitating distributed deployments with the Nomad orchestrator. Our vision is to help technical users set up local self-hosting collectives by setting up servers at three or four geographical locations for redundancy, which can then be used by their friends, neighbors, etc. We are of course very keen on deploying federated protocols such as Matrix to link all of these communities together. [0] https://garagehq.deuxfleurs.fr https://garagehq.deuxfleurs.fr [1] https://git.deuxfleurs.fr/Deuxfleurs/infrastructure https://git.deuxfleurs.fr/Deuxfleurs/infrastructure [2] https://git.deuxfleurs.fr/Deuxfleurs/garage/src/branch/main/doc/talks/2021-09-13-ngi-kickoff/talk.pdf https://git.deuxfleurs.fr/Deuxfleurs/garage/src/branch/main/... [3] https://git.deuxfleurs.fr/Deuxfleurs/diplonat https://git.deuxfleurs.fr/Deuxfleurs/diplonat Not linking our main website because it's in French.

tifadg1 5y ago
For an outsider, yet one that has a soft spot for decentralization, I can't understand what niche the projects are solving. Technical users can already rent a vps for very cheap and do it there. HA works only as well as it was tailored to - no generic solutions will change that, unless they impose harsh complexity. Who are the potential users?
- adrn10 5y ago
  (I'm also part of Deuxfleurs) With Garage, we are trying to eschew the need for a VPS, or at least provide on-premise failovers for individuals and tiny organisations. Our argument, as stated by OP, is that domestic connections are now powerful enough to release the load on datacenters. We deem it more ecological and empowering to plug-in an old computer to your home box.

cookiengineer 5y ago

I agree with your arguments completely, and I've come to similar conclusions (except with dat and ipfs) when I decided how to build my peer to peer web browser network. Unfortunately, in the real world peer to peer is a different problem due to carrier-grade NATs everywhere. I have to implement malware-like exfiltration and smuggling techniques in order to build an end to end encrypted network, because pretty much down the infrastructure is unreliable and manipulated by ISPs wherever they can, including unencrypted DNS or even DNS via TLS ports being blocked completely off the internet. [1] Without those protocol in protocol techniques there'll always be a single point of failure, like with all "dApps" that are actually just gatekeepers on a centralized domain as a point of entry for their network. Those usually can be blocked off so easily that it's ridiculous to call them decentralized. Somehow, between the 2000s and now, the internet got so crippled for endusers that it boggles my mind how that happened without resistance. [1] https://github.com/tholian-network https://github.com/tholian-network

MaxBarraclough 5y ago

> No, the decentralized web is the decentalized web. And it's easy to be a part of it. The IndieWeb community deserve a mention here, they're all about exactly this kind of thing: https://indieweb.org/ https://indieweb.org/