7 ms·

California May Be the First State to Legislate Amazon Warehouse Conditions

45 points by atg_abhishek 5y ago

piokoch 5y ago
I have to say I am impressed by Amazon spokesperson Rachael Lighty that she is able to produce the comment like this: "We’re committed to giving our employees the resources they need to be successful, creating time for regular breaks and a comfortable pace." with a straight face, while being presented with the facts that the opposite is true. "“Three times,” she said she responded, thinking about how it took five minutes to walk each way across the warehouse floor to get to the bathroom." My guess is that Amazon managers, facing this horrible fact that people have to walk 5 min to the toilet, would introduce some innovative ML-driven solution like "fast portable toilet" (that is a pee bottles that employees will have to carry with them and managers will be cheering up that the solution fully meets all the company diversity and inclusion standards).
- bushbaba 5y ago
  A warehouse is huge. A 5min walk to the restroom isn’t unreasonable. Id assume it takes a similar amount of time at usps, ups, fedex, and most large-scale domestic manufacturing facilities
  - alistairSH 5y ago
    True, but Amazon apparently ignores that fact when calculating bathroom break time. 60 minutes of bathroom time isn't unreasonable over a 10 hour shift, if 30+ minutes of that is walking to/from the bathroom.
  - ThePadawan 5y ago
    I've worked (in software) for a retailer before and did a "day in the life" of a warehouse employee. This was overall not a great company that gave two shits about their employees. But they did have the punch clock in a central location, near the bathrooms. To be able to punch out, you need to walk your ass over there in the first place. And that's how it should be.
- mchusma 5y ago
  Those aren't facts, they are a fired employees opinion.
imgabe 5y ago
Oh good, the people who brought you forest fires, rolling blackouts, and rampant looting will be sure to fix everything.
- alistairSH 5y ago
  At least they're trying. The status quo isn't working. If you have a better suggestion, I'm sure they'd love to hear it.
  - imgabe 5y ago
    They are the status quo. They are the ones that are not working.
  - gruez 5y ago
    The implication is that those are caused/exacerbated by deliberate actions, rather than issues that came out of nowhere. Of the ones listed: - forest fires: newsom cut state wildfire prevention budgets - rolling blackouts: pg&e neglected to properly maintain electricity lines - rampant looting: prop 47, san francisco DA that refuses to prosecute minor crimes (like looting)
    - cardiffspaceman 5y ago
      The fact is that PG&E does not provide power to the entire state. LA's DWP (municipal), SCE, and SDG&E serve major areas.
  - diogenescynic 5y ago
    They may be trying but everything they’ve done has put a California in a death spiral like a declining civilization. Driving the 5 is like Mad Max Fury Road. Every year the state gets more lawless and hellish and poverty increases. Democrats have a super majority and just put embarrassingly woke policies into place that do nothing to solve the opioid, meth, crime, or other problems ravaging the state. Last night I was in a parking lot with my 14 month old daughter and there were literally 3 screaming insane people in the parking lot within 40 feet… How are people supposed to feel safe with kids?
MattGaiser 5y ago
Is there a reason they don't just have more bathrooms? A 5 minute walk to the bathroom seems further than you would walk in any mall.
- gruez 5y ago
  >Is there a reason they don't just have more bathrooms setting up the plumbing to all areas of the warehouse is expensive. >A 5 minute walk to the bathroom seems further than you would walk in any mall. 5 minute seems about right for a mall if you factor in the time looking for it.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    5 minutes doesn't seem unreasonable for a large building - if you're in IKEA and have to get to the entrance to find a bathroom it might take that long; or you're on a soccer field. What's unreasonable is not accounting for that time.
- spaetzleesser 5y ago
  Because they are cheapskates and want to squeeze out the maximum profit with the least effort.
- pjc50 5y ago
  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57849364 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57849364 Every dollar spent on bathrooms is a dollar Bezos can't spend on going to space.
- tzs 5y ago
  An obvious approach comes to mind. From the video I saw from Amazon about their warehouses, they work like this. 1. The goods are stored in stand-alone cabinets containing multiple slide-out bins. The cabinets are stored in a large section of the warehouse that humans do not normally go into. 2. When an order needs an item stored in bin X of cabinet Y, one of Amazon's robots (a short flat wheeled robot--like a robot vacuum but squarer and beefier) moves to under cabinet Y and lifts it and brings it to the workstation of the worker who is packing the order. 3. When the cabinet arrives at the workstation the system shines a light on bin X. The worker grabs the required item from that bin and packs it into the outgoing order. Repeat for any other bins with items needed from that cabinet. Then the cabinet is taken away (back to storage or I would guess to the next worker who needs something from it). 4. Similar for received items. The system brings the cabinet the item is to be stored in to the worker, shines lights on the bins the worker can put it in, notes which bin the worker put it in, and when done with that worker takes the cabinet away for storage. So...why not get a bunch of portable toilets mounted on bases that the robots can move (or better designed specifically for Amazon's needs)? When a worker needs a bathroom break they could inform the system and it could bring a toilet to them. This would also allow the toilets to be brought to a specific area for cleaning rather than having a janitor have to make rounds. The toilets could probably be designed to make it easy to automate much of this.
andy_ppp 5y ago
This might sound very naive but there is a huge worker shortage out there, so if working in an Amazon warehouse is so bad why do people do it?
- spaetzleesser 5y ago
  Because a lot of people are happy to have any job. You need some level of understanding of the market and qualifications to be able to pick better jobs. And if you have worked in bad jobs for a while you probably don’t even know that things are better somewhere else. The same happens in higher qualified jobs too. Why do so many programmers work in abusive companies while there are better companies out there? Maybe they lack the initiative, qualifications or just understanding to apply at better companies. Whatever it is, the fact that people go for those jobs shouldn’t be an excuse for abuse by employers. Otherwise we could tell abused spouses the abuse is ok because they should have left if they don’t like it.
- throw_m239339 5y ago
  > This might sound very naive but there is a huge jobs shortage out there, so if working in an Amazon warehouse is so bad why do people do it? You're assuming that people can relocate on a whim, considering the rental prices right now? If an Amazon warehouse is what pays the most at a 30 miles distance, that's where people are going to go. The "job shortage" isn't distributed equally on the surface of USA either.
  - ottermax8 5y ago
    any data on that?
    - triceratops 5y ago
      Data on what? "Relocation is unpleasant, time-consuming, and expensive"? "Jobs aren't equally distributed geographically"?
- rtkwe 5y ago
  Worker shortages mostly seem to exist in service industry jobs that are also kind of shitty to work in and are low pay.
mrtranscendence 5y ago
Good. I have no sympathy for businesses who say this will increase costs -- if you wanted to head this off by improving matters yourselves you had ample opportunity. I'm more than OK with California hopping in here, and I hope other states follow.
oh_sigh 5y ago
Since everyone may have different bathroom timing needs, how does one develop a policy that accounts for that, but doesn't just let someone go sit on the toilet for half an hour playing on their phone?
KingMachiavelli 5y ago
> The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics cites data that shows warehouse workers are injured nearly twice as often as other workers in the private sector. That does not seem strange? At one end you the scale you have sedentary office jobs so a warehouse job being ~2-3x higher seems pretty normal. > Lightly added that the data on musculoskeletal injuries, such as sprains, strained muscles, and torn ligaments, at Amazon’s warehouses “is skewed.” She said that’s because the company’s workforce has many people in the 18 to 24 age range, which she said is more likely than other age groups to claim work-related musculoskeletal injuries. Interesting if true since I would expect the opposite. There are many other factors at play. If the warehouse is at a reasonable temperature, good airflow, etc. and you are provided/reimbursed the cost of footwear then it doesn't seem like it would be too bad compared to other physical labor jobs but since the number of workers is so large it makes the news. I would be surprised if Amazon's warehouse was worse than farm labor jobs considering exposure to heat and the elements. If we want to raise the floor on work safety/comfort, IMO it would make sense to impose these requirements for all jobs rather than single out warehouse jobs. There's a danger with targeted legislation like this because it could lead to a scenario where the 'cost' of these restrictions is more easily absorbed by a company like Amazon or Walmart but a small warehouse company or even a new Amazon competitor has a harder time competing because the new regulatory burdens increase the barrier to entry.
- ThePadawan 5y ago
  > She said that’s because the company’s workforce has many people in the 18 to 24 age range, which she said is more likely than other age groups to claim work-related musculoskeletal injuries. > Interesting if true since I would expect the opposite. Hypothetically, I can imagine that older workers (who potentially have a harder time finding employment) under-report their own injuries, given at-will employment.

45 points by atg_abhishek 5y ago

I have to say I am impressed by Amazon spokesperson Rachael Lighty that she is able to produce the comment like this: "We’re committed to giving our employees the resources they need to be successful, creating time for regular breaks and a comfortable pace." with a straight face, while being presented with the facts that the opposite is true. "“Three times,” she said she responded, thinking about how it took five minutes to walk each way across the warehouse floor to get to the bathroom." My guess is that Amazon managers, facing this horrible fact that people have to walk 5 min to the toilet, would introduce some innovative ML-driven solution like "fast portable toilet" (that is a pee bottles that employees will have to carry with them and managers will be cheering up that the solution fully meets all the company diversity and inclusion standards).

bushbaba 5y ago
A warehouse is huge. A 5min walk to the restroom isn’t unreasonable. Id assume it takes a similar amount of time at usps, ups, fedex, and most large-scale domestic manufacturing facilities
- alistairSH 5y ago
  True, but Amazon apparently ignores that fact when calculating bathroom break time. 60 minutes of bathroom time isn't unreasonable over a 10 hour shift, if 30+ minutes of that is walking to/from the bathroom.
- ThePadawan 5y ago
  I've worked (in software) for a retailer before and did a "day in the life" of a warehouse employee. This was overall not a great company that gave two shits about their employees. But they did have the punch clock in a central location, near the bathrooms. To be able to punch out, you need to walk your ass over there in the first place. And that's how it should be.
mchusma 5y ago
Those aren't facts, they are a fired employees opinion.

imgabe 5y ago

Oh good, the people who brought you forest fires, rolling blackouts, and rampant looting will be sure to fix everything.

alistairSH 5y ago
At least they're trying. The status quo isn't working. If you have a better suggestion, I'm sure they'd love to hear it.
- imgabe 5y ago
  They are the status quo. They are the ones that are not working.
- gruez 5y ago
  The implication is that those are caused/exacerbated by deliberate actions, rather than issues that came out of nowhere. Of the ones listed: - forest fires: newsom cut state wildfire prevention budgets - rolling blackouts: pg&e neglected to properly maintain electricity lines - rampant looting: prop 47, san francisco DA that refuses to prosecute minor crimes (like looting)
  - cardiffspaceman 5y ago
    The fact is that PG&E does not provide power to the entire state. LA's DWP (municipal), SCE, and SDG&E serve major areas.
- diogenescynic 5y ago
  They may be trying but everything they’ve done has put a California in a death spiral like a declining civilization. Driving the 5 is like Mad Max Fury Road. Every year the state gets more lawless and hellish and poverty increases. Democrats have a super majority and just put embarrassingly woke policies into place that do nothing to solve the opioid, meth, crime, or other problems ravaging the state. Last night I was in a parking lot with my 14 month old daughter and there were literally 3 screaming insane people in the parking lot within 40 feet… How are people supposed to feel safe with kids?

MattGaiser 5y ago

Is there a reason they don't just have more bathrooms? A 5 minute walk to the bathroom seems further than you would walk in any mall.

gruez 5y ago
>Is there a reason they don't just have more bathrooms setting up the plumbing to all areas of the warehouse is expensive. >A 5 minute walk to the bathroom seems further than you would walk in any mall. 5 minute seems about right for a mall if you factor in the time looking for it.
- bombcar 5y ago
  5 minutes doesn't seem unreasonable for a large building - if you're in IKEA and have to get to the entrance to find a bathroom it might take that long; or you're on a soccer field. What's unreasonable is not accounting for that time.
spaetzleesser 5y ago
Because they are cheapskates and want to squeeze out the maximum profit with the least effort.
pjc50 5y ago
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57849364 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57849364 Every dollar spent on bathrooms is a dollar Bezos can't spend on going to space.
tzs 5y ago
An obvious approach comes to mind. From the video I saw from Amazon about their warehouses, they work like this. 1. The goods are stored in stand-alone cabinets containing multiple slide-out bins. The cabinets are stored in a large section of the warehouse that humans do not normally go into. 2. When an order needs an item stored in bin X of cabinet Y, one of Amazon's robots (a short flat wheeled robot--like a robot vacuum but squarer and beefier) moves to under cabinet Y and lifts it and brings it to the workstation of the worker who is packing the order. 3. When the cabinet arrives at the workstation the system shines a light on bin X. The worker grabs the required item from that bin and packs it into the outgoing order. Repeat for any other bins with items needed from that cabinet. Then the cabinet is taken away (back to storage or I would guess to the next worker who needs something from it). 4. Similar for received items. The system brings the cabinet the item is to be stored in to the worker, shines lights on the bins the worker can put it in, notes which bin the worker put it in, and when done with that worker takes the cabinet away for storage. So...why not get a bunch of portable toilets mounted on bases that the robots can move (or better designed specifically for Amazon's needs)? When a worker needs a bathroom break they could inform the system and it could bring a toilet to them. This would also allow the toilets to be brought to a specific area for cleaning rather than having a janitor have to make rounds. The toilets could probably be designed to make it easy to automate much of this.

andy_ppp 5y ago

This might sound very naive but there is a huge worker shortage out there, so if working in an Amazon warehouse is so bad why do people do it?

spaetzleesser 5y ago
Because a lot of people are happy to have any job. You need some level of understanding of the market and qualifications to be able to pick better jobs. And if you have worked in bad jobs for a while you probably don’t even know that things are better somewhere else. The same happens in higher qualified jobs too. Why do so many programmers work in abusive companies while there are better companies out there? Maybe they lack the initiative, qualifications or just understanding to apply at better companies. Whatever it is, the fact that people go for those jobs shouldn’t be an excuse for abuse by employers. Otherwise we could tell abused spouses the abuse is ok because they should have left if they don’t like it.
throw_m239339 5y ago
> This might sound very naive but there is a huge jobs shortage out there, so if working in an Amazon warehouse is so bad why do people do it? You're assuming that people can relocate on a whim, considering the rental prices right now? If an Amazon warehouse is what pays the most at a 30 miles distance, that's where people are going to go. The "job shortage" isn't distributed equally on the surface of USA either.
- ottermax8 5y ago
  any data on that?
  - triceratops 5y ago
    Data on what? "Relocation is unpleasant, time-consuming, and expensive"? "Jobs aren't equally distributed geographically"?
rtkwe 5y ago
Worker shortages mostly seem to exist in service industry jobs that are also kind of shitty to work in and are low pay.

mrtranscendence 5y ago

Good. I have no sympathy for businesses who say this will increase costs -- if you wanted to head this off by improving matters yourselves you had ample opportunity. I'm more than OK with California hopping in here, and I hope other states follow.

oh_sigh 5y ago

Since everyone may have different bathroom timing needs, how does one develop a policy that accounts for that, but doesn't just let someone go sit on the toilet for half an hour playing on their phone?

KingMachiavelli 5y ago

> The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics cites data that shows warehouse workers are injured nearly twice as often as other workers in the private sector. That does not seem strange? At one end you the scale you have sedentary office jobs so a warehouse job being ~2-3x higher seems pretty normal. > Lightly added that the data on musculoskeletal injuries, such as sprains, strained muscles, and torn ligaments, at Amazon’s warehouses “is skewed.” She said that’s because the company’s workforce has many people in the 18 to 24 age range, which she said is more likely than other age groups to claim work-related musculoskeletal injuries. Interesting if true since I would expect the opposite. There are many other factors at play. If the warehouse is at a reasonable temperature, good airflow, etc. and you are provided/reimbursed the cost of footwear then it doesn't seem like it would be too bad compared to other physical labor jobs but since the number of workers is so large it makes the news. I would be surprised if Amazon's warehouse was worse than farm labor jobs considering exposure to heat and the elements. If we want to raise the floor on work safety/comfort, IMO it would make sense to impose these requirements for all jobs rather than single out warehouse jobs. There's a danger with targeted legislation like this because it could lead to a scenario where the 'cost' of these restrictions is more easily absorbed by a company like Amazon or Walmart but a small warehouse company or even a new Amazon competitor has a harder time competing because the new regulatory burdens increase the barrier to entry.

ThePadawan 5y ago
> She said that’s because the company’s workforce has many people in the 18 to 24 age range, which she said is more likely than other age groups to claim work-related musculoskeletal injuries. > Interesting if true since I would expect the opposite. Hypothetically, I can imagine that older workers (who potentially have a harder time finding employment) under-report their own injuries, given at-will employment.