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This is indeed annoying and illogical when learning english, especially because other languages get it right. The french have a different speciality: punctuati

by Tepix 5y ago

This is indeed annoying and illogical when learning english, especially because other languages get it right. The french have a different speciality: punctuation marks that consist of two parts(i.e. ? ! ; :) are preceded by a space character. Also very irritating.

rom1v 5y ago
> The french have a different speciality: punctuation marks that consist of two parts(i.e. ? ! ; :) are preceded by a space character. Precision: a non-breaking space (unicode U+00A0) :) LibreOffice or other word processing software automatically replace normal spaces by non-breaking spaces in that case. But in text editors (like vim), we must do it manually (Ctrl+Shift+ua0 on Linux), typically when writing a French text in markdown, it's a bit irritating indeed.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  This is usually configurable, e.g. Compose-Space-Space inserts a no-break space if the Compose key is set up, or AltGr+Space, Ctrl-Shift+Space etc. (KDE has a dialog for customizing this under Settings→Input Devices→Keyboard→Advanced, where there are an impressive 16 possible options. It is just options to setxkbmap underneath.)
BossHamster 5y ago
Not only is it irritating, it looks ugly as hell.
- bambax 5y ago
  It doesn't look ugly at all if the space is of the correct length.
dredmorbius 5y ago
That's typical of older English typography as well. Here in a book of classics printed in 1910: https://archive.org/details/harvardclassics40elio/page/76/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/harvardclassics40elio/page/76/mo... And in David Hume's Essays and Treatises on Several Subjects (1753): https://archive.org/details/essaysandtreati00humegoog/page/n16/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/essaysandtreati00humegoog/page/n...
bambax 5y ago
The space should be an "espace fine" (espace is feminine in that context), meaning a smaller space (En Space) than the normal space (Em Space). The En Space is non-breakable, but the normal non-breakable space is Em in length, and therefore improper.
- rom1v 5y ago
  Hmmm, that's true: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espace_fine_ins%C3%A9cable https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espace_fine_ins%C3%A9cable However, LibreOffice inserts a non-breaking space U+00A0 instead :(
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    So the French don't break their spaces, they cut them. Reminds me of https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sekat%C3%B6r https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sekat%C3%B6r
- currysausage 5y ago
  Note that em (current point size) and en (½ em) spaces are both wider than the regular space character (typically ¼ em). An espace fine insécable (narrow no-break space) is even smaller, usually as small as a Unicode thin space (⅕ or ⅙ em): https://jkorpela.fi/chars/spaces.html https://jkorpela.fi/chars/spaces.html Word, in French mode, inserts regular no-break spaces where narrow no-break spaces would be appropriate. I find this style rather irritating, but then again, I don’t read nearly enough French to get accustomed to it. However, I do agree strongly with the late Jan Tschichold, who recommended thin spaces before question marks, exclamation marks, colons, and semicolons for other languages, too: https://www.courses.psu.edu/art/art101_jxm22/tschichold.html#:~:text=thin%20spaces%20before%20question%20marks%2C%20exclamation%20marks%2C%20colons%2C%20and%20semicolons https://www.courses.psu.edu/art/art101_jxm22/tschichold.html...
  - bambax 5y ago
    Ah, you're right, my translation of espace fine to En was incorrect, thanks for the correction. An intriguing problem in typography is the patterns that spaces can form between words on different lines (called rivers); in traditional typography it is checked for but I don't know of any rendering engine that would do that automatically (in a browser, or on an e-reader for example).
weinzierl 5y ago
On the other hand, it was the English who used to have some extra space between sentences compared to the space between words. This is still the default in LaTeX, but I believe everyone turns it off by using the \frenchspacing command in the preamble. Also German has its own verbs for "for the insertion of inappropriate spaces before a punctuation mark." and "for the insertion of inappropriate spaces after a punctuation mark."[1] which are often used in a derogatory manner in connection with people who do it wrongly. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plenken https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plenken

by Tepix 5y ago

rom1v 5y ago

> The french have a different speciality: punctuation marks that consist of two parts(i.e. ? ! ; :) are preceded by a space character. Precision: a non-breaking space (unicode U+00A0) :) LibreOffice or other word processing software automatically replace normal spaces by non-breaking spaces in that case. But in text editors (like vim), we must do it manually (Ctrl+Shift+ua0 on Linux), typically when writing a French text in markdown, it's a bit irritating indeed.

Symbiote 5y ago
This is usually configurable, e.g. Compose-Space-Space inserts a no-break space if the Compose key is set up, or AltGr+Space, Ctrl-Shift+Space etc. (KDE has a dialog for customizing this under Settings→Input Devices→Keyboard→Advanced, where there are an impressive 16 possible options. It is just options to setxkbmap underneath.)

BossHamster 5y ago

Not only is it irritating, it looks ugly as hell.

bambax 5y ago
It doesn't look ugly at all if the space is of the correct length.

dredmorbius 5y ago

That's typical of older English typography as well. Here in a book of classics printed in 1910: https://archive.org/details/harvardclassics40elio/page/76/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/harvardclassics40elio/page/76/mo... And in David Hume's Essays and Treatises on Several Subjects (1753): https://archive.org/details/essaysandtreati00humegoog/page/n16/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/essaysandtreati00humegoog/page/n...

bambax 5y ago

The space should be an "espace fine" (espace is feminine in that context), meaning a smaller space (En Space) than the normal space (Em Space). The En Space is non-breakable, but the normal non-breakable space is Em in length, and therefore improper.

rom1v 5y ago
Hmmm, that's true: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espace_fine_ins%C3%A9cable https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espace_fine_ins%C3%A9cable However, LibreOffice inserts a non-breaking space U+00A0 instead :(
- CRConrad 5y ago
  So the French don't break their spaces, they cut them. Reminds me of https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sekat%C3%B6r https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sekat%C3%B6r
currysausage 5y ago
Note that em (current point size) and en (½ em) spaces are both wider than the regular space character (typically ¼ em). An espace fine insécable (narrow no-break space) is even smaller, usually as small as a Unicode thin space (⅕ or ⅙ em): https://jkorpela.fi/chars/spaces.html https://jkorpela.fi/chars/spaces.html Word, in French mode, inserts regular no-break spaces where narrow no-break spaces would be appropriate. I find this style rather irritating, but then again, I don’t read nearly enough French to get accustomed to it. However, I do agree strongly with the late Jan Tschichold, who recommended thin spaces before question marks, exclamation marks, colons, and semicolons for other languages, too: https://www.courses.psu.edu/art/art101_jxm22/tschichold.html#:~:text=thin%20spaces%20before%20question%20marks%2C%20exclamation%20marks%2C%20colons%2C%20and%20semicolons https://www.courses.psu.edu/art/art101_jxm22/tschichold.html...
- bambax 5y ago
  Ah, you're right, my translation of espace fine to En was incorrect, thanks for the correction. An intriguing problem in typography is the patterns that spaces can form between words on different lines (called rivers); in traditional typography it is checked for but I don't know of any rendering engine that would do that automatically (in a browser, or on an e-reader for example).

weinzierl 5y ago

On the other hand, it was the English who used to have some extra space between sentences compared to the space between words. This is still the default in LaTeX, but I believe everyone turns it off by using the \frenchspacing command in the preamble. Also German has its own verbs for "for the insertion of inappropriate spaces before a punctuation mark." and "for the insertion of inappropriate spaces after a punctuation mark."[1] which are often used in a derogatory manner in connection with people who do it wrongly. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plenken https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plenken