4 ms·

I got in a heated debate about this with a technical writing instructor. Namely, I was ending a question with a quote along the lines of > Why did Jake believe

by donatj 5y ago

I got in a heated debate about this with a technical writing instructor. Namely, I was ending a question with a quote along the lines of > Why did Jake believe the AI was “going to kill us all”? The instructor wanted me to put the question mark of the outer sentence within the quotation marks despite the quoted text not containing a question mark. > Why did Jake believe the AI was “going to kill us all?” I felt like doing so changed the meaning of the quote, and it felt like a misrepresentation. This being the “correct” way to do it has always irritated me. I ended up rewording the sentence so it wouldn’t end with the quotation, and have just actively avoided ending sentences in quotes ever since.

eCa 5y ago
Yes, this is the reason why, IMHO, the American way is objectively wrong. Aesthetics is in the eye of the beholder, but a quotation style that enforces incorrect quotations is not good.
- pteraspidomorph 5y ago
  It makes some sense if you consider it a representation of the way you'd speak/read the sentence. If you read that sentence out loud, regardless of where you put the question mark you'll have to intone the quote as if the quote was a question, due to its context. So it functions "better" as a reading hint. (Though I'd also prefer to have the punctuation outside the quote.)
- soraminazuki 5y ago
  It seems wrong because it is. > Question marks and exclamation points have their own rules. > If they apply to the quoted material, they go within the quotation marks. If they apply to the whole sentence, they go outside it https://www.grammarly.com/blog/quotation-marks/ https://www.grammarly.com/blog/quotation-marks/
  - eCa 5y ago
    I have seen things like: > The password is ’%>>~|]#^|,’ which is awesome. Which is, as far as I know, correct according to the rules.
    - bee_rider 5y ago
      I don't think the normal rules of grammar are designed to handle this case. I would probably write something like > The password, which is awesome, is: > %>>~|]#^| This also has the benefit of putting the password on it's own line, which should make life easier for people actually consuming the document.
    - PennRobotics 5y ago
      There's nothing I like more than typing a URL at the end of a sentence and getting the punctuation wrapped up in the URL. /s
shannifin 5y ago
Unlike periods and commas, putting question marks and exclamation marks inside the quotation when they are not part of the quote is against AP, APA, Chicago, and MLA style specifications... Granted, I don't know if technical writing typically adheres to some other style, but shoving a question mark inside a quote it isn't part of is definitely not typical of American styles in general.
- lolinder 5y ago
  Correct, but that just shows why the American style is so confusing. That we have to have an exception for more meaningful punctuation marks just serves to confuse, and emphasizes just how bad the default is.
  - dnautics 5y ago
    I didn't even realize that periods were an exception. (as an American) I've always preserved the original quote for all three forms of punctuation, and put a sentence-ender only if there isn't one inside the quote. I'd bet most americans do the same, style guides be damned. IMO, it's also totally crazy to export a punctuation mark out of the quote always.
    - shannifin 5y ago
      True, you really only have to worry about it if you're writing or editing for a teacher or publisher who wants you to adhere to some specific style. The real annoying thing for me (as an American) was having different teachers teach different things in school. (Same with double spaces between sentences in typing and the oxford comma.) At least when the teacher used a style guide, there was a source of consistency I could turn to, even if I disagreed with them.
beckerdo 5y ago
This brings up a point related to the double-period/redundancy discussion above. In a slight adjustment of this example, what if the text were a question and the quotation were a statement. Would this be a good construct: Why did Jake believe "the AI was going to kill us all."? Similarly you could have a text statement with a quoted question: Jake asked "would the AI kill us all?".
- Xen0byte 5y ago
  Very good counter-argument to the non-sensical punctuation mark redundancy argument.
  - beckerdo 5y ago
    Also there are the possibilities for various questions and exclamations. Why did Jake ask "Can I have another biscuit?"? I was frightened when Jake shouted "Who are you?"! My trousers were soiled when Jake shouted "Boo!"! Why did I soil my trousers when Jake shouted "Boo!"?
dfxm12 5y ago
I felt like doing so changed the meaning of the quote, and it felt like a misrepresentation... I ended up rewording the sentence so it wouldn’t end with the quotation, and have just actively avoided ending sentences in quotes ever since. I appreciate the skill involved in avoiding ambiguity. The hard part is knowing the unknown unknowns, ya know? I read both sentences the same way and can't really fathom why someone else wouldn't! (Of course, I don't have the context of the original quote here, so maybe that comes into play... but I don't know, and probably shouldn't have to!)
Tsiklon 5y ago
I think you're right; > Why did Jake believe the AI was "going to kill us all?" This reads, to me, like Jake's quoted sentence was originally a question. If the original sentence was an assertion or a statement, then you're right this fundamentally changes the meaning and strength of Jake's sentence.
sebastialonso 5y ago
wow, your instructor is an idiot.

by donatj 5y ago

eCa 5y ago

Yes, this is the reason why, IMHO, the American way is objectively wrong. Aesthetics is in the eye of the beholder, but a quotation style that enforces incorrect quotations is not good.

pteraspidomorph 5y ago
It makes some sense if you consider it a representation of the way you'd speak/read the sentence. If you read that sentence out loud, regardless of where you put the question mark you'll have to intone the quote as if the quote was a question, due to its context. So it functions "better" as a reading hint. (Though I'd also prefer to have the punctuation outside the quote.)
soraminazuki 5y ago
It seems wrong because it is. > Question marks and exclamation points have their own rules. > If they apply to the quoted material, they go within the quotation marks. If they apply to the whole sentence, they go outside it https://www.grammarly.com/blog/quotation-marks/ https://www.grammarly.com/blog/quotation-marks/
- eCa 5y ago
  I have seen things like: > The password is ’%>>~|]#^|,’ which is awesome. Which is, as far as I know, correct according to the rules.
  - bee_rider 5y ago
    I don't think the normal rules of grammar are designed to handle this case. I would probably write something like > The password, which is awesome, is: > %>>~|]#^| This also has the benefit of putting the password on it's own line, which should make life easier for people actually consuming the document.
  - PennRobotics 5y ago
    There's nothing I like more than typing a URL at the end of a sentence and getting the punctuation wrapped up in the URL. /s

shannifin 5y ago

Unlike periods and commas, putting question marks and exclamation marks inside the quotation when they are not part of the quote is against AP, APA, Chicago, and MLA style specifications... Granted, I don't know if technical writing typically adheres to some other style, but shoving a question mark inside a quote it isn't part of is definitely not typical of American styles in general.

lolinder 5y ago
Correct, but that just shows why the American style is so confusing. That we have to have an exception for more meaningful punctuation marks just serves to confuse, and emphasizes just how bad the default is.
- dnautics 5y ago
  I didn't even realize that periods were an exception. (as an American) I've always preserved the original quote for all three forms of punctuation, and put a sentence-ender only if there isn't one inside the quote. I'd bet most americans do the same, style guides be damned. IMO, it's also totally crazy to export a punctuation mark out of the quote always.
  - shannifin 5y ago
    True, you really only have to worry about it if you're writing or editing for a teacher or publisher who wants you to adhere to some specific style. The real annoying thing for me (as an American) was having different teachers teach different things in school. (Same with double spaces between sentences in typing and the oxford comma.) At least when the teacher used a style guide, there was a source of consistency I could turn to, even if I disagreed with them.

beckerdo 5y ago

This brings up a point related to the double-period/redundancy discussion above. In a slight adjustment of this example, what if the text were a question and the quotation were a statement. Would this be a good construct: Why did Jake believe "the AI was going to kill us all."? Similarly you could have a text statement with a quoted question: Jake asked "would the AI kill us all?".

Xen0byte 5y ago
Very good counter-argument to the non-sensical punctuation mark redundancy argument.
- beckerdo 5y ago
  Also there are the possibilities for various questions and exclamations. Why did Jake ask "Can I have another biscuit?"? I was frightened when Jake shouted "Who are you?"! My trousers were soiled when Jake shouted "Boo!"! Why did I soil my trousers when Jake shouted "Boo!"?

dfxm12 5y ago

I felt like doing so changed the meaning of the quote, and it felt like a misrepresentation... I ended up rewording the sentence so it wouldn’t end with the quotation, and have just actively avoided ending sentences in quotes ever since. I appreciate the skill involved in avoiding ambiguity. The hard part is knowing the unknown unknowns, ya know? I read both sentences the same way and can't really fathom why someone else wouldn't! (Of course, I don't have the context of the original quote here, so maybe that comes into play... but I don't know, and probably shouldn't have to!)

Tsiklon 5y ago

I think you're right; > Why did Jake believe the AI was "going to kill us all?" This reads, to me, like Jake's quoted sentence was originally a question. If the original sentence was an assertion or a statement, then you're right this fundamentally changes the meaning and strength of Jake's sentence.

sebastialonso 5y ago

wow, your instructor is an idiot.