4 ms·

Yeah it's an interesting model. I'm guessing it works on an honour system as income isn't easily verifiable

by pattle 5y ago

londons_explore 5y ago
In Norway, everyone's income is public information. Other countries could do the same to make things more transparent.
- zohch 5y ago
  > In Norway, everyone's income is public information. > Other countries could do the same to make things more transparent. What verifiable tangible benefits does this have?
  - ArgyleSound 5y ago
    Knowing what people employed in similar roles to you earn helps you bargain for an equivalent salary
    - zohch 5y ago
      In theory, not sure this translates to reality. I don't even have anecdotal evidence that this works. Employed in similar roles does not mean equally valuable to company. I live in Norway and I don't think I would ever tell my employer they need to pay me the same as someone else, I also know there is significant variability for pay in the same role at places I worked (without ever checking public tax records).
  - wombatmobile 5y ago
    Traffic fines in Finland are proportional to the offender's income. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/nokia-boss-gets-116-000-speeding-ticket-1.410276 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/nokia-boss-gets-116-000-spee... Simple, elegant and fair? Mathematically perhaps, but people are people... https://www.automotive-fleet.com/10481/nokia-executive-fined-with-103000-speeding-ticket https://www.automotive-fleet.com/10481/nokia-executive-fined...
    - zohch 5y ago
      > Traffic fines in Finland are proportional to the offender's income. Don't need everyone's income to be public information to do that.
      - wombatmobile 5y ago
        > Don't need everyone's income to be public information to do that. It depends if you want speeding fines to be transparent, or secret.
  - WaitWaitWha 5y ago
    Kidnappers no longer need to waste time scoping out potential targets.
- randomlurking 5y ago
  Never heard of it, can’t really imagine how that would work out in other countries. Is it a somewhat new regulation? Is it easy to access the information?
  - aldanor 5y ago
    https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/forms/search-the-tax-lists https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/forms/search-the-tax-lists
  - PaulIH 5y ago
    It's actually a fairly long tradition, it's only been online for the previous decade or so. I'ts easy to access, it's just that for the last few years, you can also see if someone has checked your taxes and who they are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bO8zEaSuWg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bO8zEaSuWg
  - Delk 5y ago
    I think it's a Nordic thing. Tax records (including recorded income) are also public in Finland, and apparently Sweden has something similar. [1] In case of Finland, the current legislation that makes tax information public was originally introduced in 1999 but I can't remember whether the records were also public (based on some other regulation) prior to that or not. In any case, it's not that recent. The Reuters article says Norway has had public tax information since 1863, but I don't personally know anything more about that. AFAIK anybody's tax records are basically a phone call away. You can't just google for the information, though. I don't know how it works in Norway. (Edit: but apparently the sibling replies do.) [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-panama-tax-nordics-idUSKCN0X91QE https://www.reuters.com/article/us-panama-tax-nordics-idUSKC...
    - tephra 5y ago
      To give the Swedish story. In general all documents, decisions, etc. handled by a public agency are by default public (i.e you can call/email the agency and ask for them). So when the tax agency makes a decision on your taxes that becomes public, i.e we can see what taxable income you have. One way this is used is by newspapers to look into the income of politicians (and other famous people..). The right of public information is taken quite seriously by the courts (and should be taken more seriously by agencies that really like to classify the information as secret, which you then have to go to court to challenge). For example an organisation I'm associated with was able to get the cookie data from the Swedish Chief of Police which the courts determined was public information (although they were allowed to mask some information).
- karencarits 5y ago
  It used to be public; the news papers had databases where you could look up individuals or list by location/birthyear/gender. Some even made maps, but they were a bit unpopular as it was suspected to be used by criminals. But knowing what politicians earned was nice and important, and news papers still report on "people of public interest" Today, you have to login online and the person you look up can see your name in the log
  - BelenusMordred 5y ago
    > Today, you have to login online and the person you look up can see your name in the log I really don't see a problem with that and would still consider it public information.
    - karencarits 5y ago
      I agree, I expressed myself poorly: it is less available today than it used to; for example, I think it would be much more difficult for foreigners to gain access today. And there is a limit of 500 searches per month So - there has been changes that resulted in less transparency or better privacy, depending on point of view
- Smithalicious 5y ago
  It's funny seeing different attitudes on that. I live in the Netherlands, so really not far away, and income is very private, almost taboo information here - something you'd only discuss with your best friends, if that. People would be horrified to have their income be public information! (please don't use my comment as a soapbox to start a labor rights debate)
- benbristow 5y ago
  Tbf in Norway everyone would be skint after a few beers regardless of their salary so you're all pretty even (jk, ofc.)
- daqhris 5y ago
  That is very interesting. It seems to me that the Norwegian society treats personal wealth information like what could happen with cryptos and blockchains. Makes me want to dig deeper and understand the WHYs and HOWs it's been accomplished. As someone born in a war-torn country, interpersonal trust is very hardly imaginable outside blood-linked relatives. Overall, in such a society there is a high degree of mistrust between individuals from different social classes or regions. Publicly displaying resources like yearly income is the last thing that would come to anyone's mind. As an adult, I have no concrete idea how much a sibling/parent makes per month. We've become so used to being vague while uncomfortably sharing our earnings. A place like Norway seems like utopia to me. Does the government intervene by sharing citizen's reported income? Who gets to verify, record and archive such info? Is there a kind of punishment for liars/cheaters/abusers? Is the disclosure of personal income a strict legal obligation or a non-binding local tradition? I'm fairly puzzled.
qsort 5y ago
It's basically 'pay what you want' with a super weird cutoff based on post-tax income. I need to lose $4 by the end of the year! /s

Yeah it's an interesting model. I'm guessing it works on an honour system as income isn't easily verifiable

by pattle 5y ago

Yeah it's an interesting model. I'm guessing it works on an honour system as income isn't easily verifiable

londons_explore 5y ago

In Norway, everyone's income is public information. Other countries could do the same to make things more transparent.

zohch 5y ago
> In Norway, everyone's income is public information. > Other countries could do the same to make things more transparent. What verifiable tangible benefits does this have?
- ArgyleSound 5y ago
  Knowing what people employed in similar roles to you earn helps you bargain for an equivalent salary
  - zohch 5y ago
    In theory, not sure this translates to reality. I don't even have anecdotal evidence that this works. Employed in similar roles does not mean equally valuable to company. I live in Norway and I don't think I would ever tell my employer they need to pay me the same as someone else, I also know there is significant variability for pay in the same role at places I worked (without ever checking public tax records).
- wombatmobile 5y ago
  Traffic fines in Finland are proportional to the offender's income. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/nokia-boss-gets-116-000-speeding-ticket-1.410276 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/nokia-boss-gets-116-000-spee... Simple, elegant and fair? Mathematically perhaps, but people are people... https://www.automotive-fleet.com/10481/nokia-executive-fined-with-103000-speeding-ticket https://www.automotive-fleet.com/10481/nokia-executive-fined...
  - zohch 5y ago
    > Traffic fines in Finland are proportional to the offender's income. Don't need everyone's income to be public information to do that.
    - wombatmobile 5y ago
      > Don't need everyone's income to be public information to do that. It depends if you want speeding fines to be transparent, or secret.
- WaitWaitWha 5y ago
  Kidnappers no longer need to waste time scoping out potential targets.
randomlurking 5y ago
Never heard of it, can’t really imagine how that would work out in other countries. Is it a somewhat new regulation? Is it easy to access the information?
- aldanor 5y ago
  https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/forms/search-the-tax-lists https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/forms/search-the-tax-lists
- PaulIH 5y ago
  It's actually a fairly long tradition, it's only been online for the previous decade or so. I'ts easy to access, it's just that for the last few years, you can also see if someone has checked your taxes and who they are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bO8zEaSuWg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bO8zEaSuWg
- Delk 5y ago
  I think it's a Nordic thing. Tax records (including recorded income) are also public in Finland, and apparently Sweden has something similar. [1] In case of Finland, the current legislation that makes tax information public was originally introduced in 1999 but I can't remember whether the records were also public (based on some other regulation) prior to that or not. In any case, it's not that recent. The Reuters article says Norway has had public tax information since 1863, but I don't personally know anything more about that. AFAIK anybody's tax records are basically a phone call away. You can't just google for the information, though. I don't know how it works in Norway. (Edit: but apparently the sibling replies do.) [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-panama-tax-nordics-idUSKCN0X91QE https://www.reuters.com/article/us-panama-tax-nordics-idUSKC...
  - tephra 5y ago
    To give the Swedish story. In general all documents, decisions, etc. handled by a public agency are by default public (i.e you can call/email the agency and ask for them). So when the tax agency makes a decision on your taxes that becomes public, i.e we can see what taxable income you have. One way this is used is by newspapers to look into the income of politicians (and other famous people..). The right of public information is taken quite seriously by the courts (and should be taken more seriously by agencies that really like to classify the information as secret, which you then have to go to court to challenge). For example an organisation I'm associated with was able to get the cookie data from the Swedish Chief of Police which the courts determined was public information (although they were allowed to mask some information).
karencarits 5y ago
It used to be public; the news papers had databases where you could look up individuals or list by location/birthyear/gender. Some even made maps, but they were a bit unpopular as it was suspected to be used by criminals. But knowing what politicians earned was nice and important, and news papers still report on "people of public interest" Today, you have to login online and the person you look up can see your name in the log
- BelenusMordred 5y ago
  > Today, you have to login online and the person you look up can see your name in the log I really don't see a problem with that and would still consider it public information.
  - karencarits 5y ago
    I agree, I expressed myself poorly: it is less available today than it used to; for example, I think it would be much more difficult for foreigners to gain access today. And there is a limit of 500 searches per month So - there has been changes that resulted in less transparency or better privacy, depending on point of view
Smithalicious 5y ago
It's funny seeing different attitudes on that. I live in the Netherlands, so really not far away, and income is very private, almost taboo information here - something you'd only discuss with your best friends, if that. People would be horrified to have their income be public information! (please don't use my comment as a soapbox to start a labor rights debate)
benbristow 5y ago
Tbf in Norway everyone would be skint after a few beers regardless of their salary so you're all pretty even (jk, ofc.)
daqhris 5y ago
That is very interesting. It seems to me that the Norwegian society treats personal wealth information like what could happen with cryptos and blockchains. Makes me want to dig deeper and understand the WHYs and HOWs it's been accomplished. As someone born in a war-torn country, interpersonal trust is very hardly imaginable outside blood-linked relatives. Overall, in such a society there is a high degree of mistrust between individuals from different social classes or regions. Publicly displaying resources like yearly income is the last thing that would come to anyone's mind. As an adult, I have no concrete idea how much a sibling/parent makes per month. We've become so used to being vague while uncomfortably sharing our earnings. A place like Norway seems like utopia to me. Does the government intervene by sharing citizen's reported income? Who gets to verify, record and archive such info? Is there a kind of punishment for liars/cheaters/abusers? Is the disclosure of personal income a strict legal obligation or a non-binding local tradition? I'm fairly puzzled.

qsort 5y ago

It's basically 'pay what you want' with a super weird cutoff based on post-tax income. I need to lose $4 by the end of the year! /s